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Dark Souls
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Steerpike
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June 24, 2014 - 8:53 am
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I had no clue about the story, really, when I played the game. I wrote the Diaries quite a bit after the fact in most cases, and it was then that I thought "maybe I should check to make sure if anything I'm saying is right." That's really when things opened up for me. In a way, finding out some of the realities after the game was over was part of the experience for me, just like the wikis.

Darkroot is huge. To this day I'm not 100% sure where I am in it at any given time. The key boss there, Simple, is Great Grey Wolf Sif, who plays an important role in the story and can really be approached at any time given your current level. I forgot about her until much later, so it was an easy fight, but your mileage may vary.

As to finishing the game in the foreseeable future... this is the only game I'm aware of where one half is considerably bigger than the other half. If you're fighting Ornstein & Smough, you're at - structurally - the halfway point almost exactly. You're also at the third of those psychological barriers I mentioned. Get past it and you'll know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you can finish the game if you choose.

Interestingly, despite being the halfway point, the second half goes faster. Something changes in your mind.

Life is the misery we endure between disappointments.

simplen00b
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June 24, 2014 - 1:21 pm
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Well, done more exploring round Darkroot - found the Wolf Ring and had my first encounter with Moonlight Butterfly, which ended in YOU DIED but only after I had got her down to about 20% of her HP, which wasn't bad as I was pretty unprepared for range battle.

If you're fighting Ornstein & Smough, you're at – structurally – the halfway point almost exactly.

Is that excluding or including the optional areas? Really want to explore the Painted World, which looks like it's going to involve a fairly long detour.

you'll know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you can finish the game if you choose.

Yeah. Had a couple of ragequits with O&S, along with a few pangs of I'm-rubbish-I'm-never-going-to-finish-Just-give-up self pity, but - I know I can beat him. The main thing is probably just remembering to take target lock off as soon as he starts shooting sparks so I can back away more effectively, but it's taking a long time to train my brain to craft those neuron paths. Bearing in mind I'm someone who, after nearly 100 hours gameplay, hasn't yet done a backstab (No. Not one. Nil. Zero. Squat.), I feel like I'm doing pretty well. (I'm enjoying myself anyway.)(Mostly.) Although Frampt is probably eating his own head with boredom at how long I'm taking to get the Lordvessel. Ah well.

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Helmut
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June 24, 2014 - 2:34 pm
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Simple, it will be interesting to see how your experience fits in with my authoritative, chosen path :). I never even came close to defeating S&O by myself, and I think your greatest danger is leveling your self out of range of people who can help. Remember that the acceptable range of summoning partners is +/- 10 levels and I would have been 60 something when I was there. If you get too far out of the range of people who are likely hanging around Anor Londo, you put yourself at risk of not being able to find someone to summons. 

While trying to do it single player only may be what you desire, and plenty of others have done so, I found S&O to be easily the hardest encounter in the whole game. The downside of taking on humanity and looking for help is, of course, invasions, which it seemed to me to be most prevalent around that area. 

How'd you get to the Depths area without having the basement key from the tower in the moonlight butterfly area? 

My Dark Souls single player sensibilities are protected by a +10 GfWL Firewall of Ineptitude

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Helmut
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June 24, 2014 - 4:21 pm
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Victory Achieved! 

My Dark Souls single player sensibilities are protected by a +10 GfWL Firewall of Ineptitude

simplen00b
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June 24, 2014 - 5:24 pm
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I've never found a player summons sign when I've been human, so maybe I am over-levelled but I'm not too worried cuz Solaire. He da man. I tried 5-6 attempts on O&S completely on my own, but going with Solaire was the only way I could last more than one minute. It just pretty quickly fell into a pattern of:

(i) Ornstein goes down;
(ii) Solaire follows suit soon after;
(iii) I dance around a pillar with Super Smough chipping away at his health until I get careless/unlucky.

It was nearly always his Electric Booty Slam that got me - I'd nip in for an attack then see the air turn gold and YOU DIED. (I did try a couple of rounds in light armour and the claymore instead of the black knight greatsword but I barely made a scratch on them, and poor old Solaire died before we got either of them down. I'm just not that good at being nimble.)

But - I. Will. Get there. Oh yes.

Re the key for the  Depths - pretty sure that was a Capra Demon drop - ?

Victory Achieved!

You've finished? smile

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Helmut
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June 24, 2014 - 5:51 pm
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@Simple. As long as you are efficient. I found that Solaire always got into it with the big guys standing court. I found it always better to 'invisible up' and then hook up with a partner at the top of the stairs right at the last moment before the fog. 

 

Yes. I have finished. I guess I went down the wrong hallway, I seem to have chosen the dark lord finish. Whatever. Simple, spend NO time worrying about the outcome, the developers certainly have not.  

My Dark Souls single player sensibilities are protected by a +10 GfWL Firewall of Ineptitude

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Synonamess Botch
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June 24, 2014 - 7:14 pm
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The key you find after the Moonlight Butterfly opens Havel's tower (but then, so does the Master Key).

Congratulations Helmut.  Indeed, the ending you choose has no bearing on gameplay.  NG+ is no different either way.  I'm curious how interested you are in another go.  NG+ never really interested me.  I prefer experimenting with different styles.

Simple, O&S really is one of the tougher boss battles.  The key is crowd control.  Don't ever lose sight of either.  Who to kill first?  There are arguments to be made either way.  I think super Ornstein is tougher than super Smough, but that's subjective (I prefer mobility over defense so maybe that's why).  Also, whichever one you pick, concentrate fire on him.  Once either is dead, any damage dealt to the survivor resets.  The Silver Knight Shield can be very helpful as it has excellent lightning resist.  It's one of my favorite shields overall since its weight to stability ratio is superb.

Moonlight Butterfly can be tricky if you don't have a powerful ranged attack.

Rule #2: Double-tap

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Helmut
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June 24, 2014 - 8:08 pm
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If I were ever to do it again, and I do enjoy most of the gameplay, I would do a different build rather than NG+. 

My Dark Souls single player sensibilities are protected by a +10 GfWL Firewall of Ineptitude

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Steerpike
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June 24, 2014 - 11:07 pm
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Congratulations, Helmut! If it makes you feel better, Dark Lord is the good ending.

Choices have no impact on gameplay, it's true, but it's worth pointing out that you only see certain things if you make (or avoid) certain choices. Indeed, as I alluded to in the Diaries, there is a path that, if followed, would significantly alter the player's sense of motivation and who's on which side. Said path is never described and never put forth as an alternative. The game never tells you how to trigger it, and you're never told if you missed it. It includes an important character who is otherwise never discussed and removes another who is otherwise an important cornerstone.

I was extremely drunk when I defeated O&S the first time and have little memory of the event. Sometimes while intoxicated I'm able to enter an altered state where my gaming prowess is greatly improved, to near-superhuman levels. Most times I just fall in holes a lot. But from what I've seen online, a combination of crowd control and judicious use of those pillars as obstacles are key to your success. It's really helpful to have a third in there with you, if you happen across a summon sign. It seems to disrupt them quite a bit, having to focus on three instead of two or one.

Life is the misery we endure between disappointments.

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Synonamess Botch
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June 24, 2014 - 11:33 pm
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There's an interesting meta-game around the O&S boss fight with respect to summons.  Since the rewards differ based on who you kill first, it's important to quickly ascertain what the host wants.  Some people message you beforehand but that's not even necessary really.  You just have to pay attention to what he does.  I've had to suicide as the host at least once because my summon killed the wrong boss.

Rule #2: Double-tap

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Helmut
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June 24, 2014 - 11:44 pm
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My meta-game was staggering around desperately trying not to die, pounding estus like a 20 year old on Mikonos, while my summoned partner did the heavy lifting. 

My Dark Souls single player sensibilities are protected by a +10 GfWL Firewall of Ineptitude

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Synonamess Botch
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June 24, 2014 - 11:51 pm
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...says the master of unlocking.

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simplen00b
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June 25, 2014 - 5:06 pm
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If I were ever to do it again, and I do enjoy most of the gameplay, I would do a different build rather than NG+. 

Yeah, I'm now pretty much committed to a strength/tank build, and most of the time I'm fine with it, but next time I think I'll try a pyro/sorceror build so I can experiment with more ranged weapons. I do like ranged attacks (the light bow with wooden arrows must have earned me several dozen thousands of souls)(I have a high tedium threshold)(although spending the best part of an hour taking out one of the titanite demons in the basement of Sen's Funhouse was pushing it even for me).

Moonlight Butterfly can be tricky if you don't have a powerful ranged attack. 

Much to my surprise, I got MB down on the 3rd or 4th try by whacking her with my black knight greatsword when she did her 'rest on the bridge for a bit' attack build-up. Just dodged/shielded up till then, and three thwacks later she was gone. A very short time later I had a Divine Greatsword +5 and I'm now exploring the catacombs.

Re the Divine Ember - is there any lore attached to that? Can't find anything on the wikis - dunno if it was just my imagination, but the corpse cradling it looked a lot like Andre. 

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Steerpike
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June 25, 2014 - 8:40 pm
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There is lore attached to it, as there is lore attached to the Dark Ember. It's only relevant as a sideline, but it helps flesh out the world. You're not wrong about the statue cradling it, either, though that (I think) is more a nod to the two blacksmiths in Demon's Souls - Ed and Boldwin look similar and it's implied that they're estranged brothers.

Life is the misery we endure between disappointments.

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Helmut
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June 25, 2014 - 10:51 pm
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I am pleased with the way my character worked out. I finished at level 90 or so, and was at 40 dex, with 25 int, and the rest into endurance and vitality. I dabbled in the magics and got nicely along with the homing soulmass delivering 200 damage which is a really nice thing to have going into a battle. I especially like the way you can target a quickly closing foe with the Soul arrow when they are stunned by the first soulmass attack. 

Sadly, while I was dabbling in NG+ my level 100 character fell off a platform, the game crashed, and the savegame is unloadable. Goodbye little Bubba-G-Ho-Tep, I'll miss you. @Simple, if I were you, I  would continue to create your own savegames as a rational precaution. 

My Dark Souls single player sensibilities are protected by a +10 GfWL Firewall of Ineptitude

simplen00b
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June 26, 2014 - 7:50 am
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I'm SL 74 at the mo, and planning to mainly shovel points into endurance (to raise my stamina and equipment load) and strength (to raise my, er, strength). Part of me would love to wear Havel's get-up with BKG at hand and still be on medium-roll - haven't done the maths but I suspect the soul-levelling involved may be a bit much.

I've got DSfix churning out savegame backups every 15 minutes, and keep a copy of significant saves (i.e. after a successful boss fight) and chuck the rest. I just have to try and remember to delete them before I tell DS to quit - if I quit and then delete them, I think Steam hoovers them up into the cloud beforehand and then spews them back out into my savegames folder before I can start again, which can be a pain.

Anyway. Catacombs done and I have the Rite of Kindling. If I go in to face O&S with 20 estus flasks, and still have a substantial number when I'm facing off against Super Smough, does a game mechanic kick in whereby after chasing me round pillars for, say, 45 minutes, he dies of boredom? If not, why not?mad

On a less rampantly stupid more serious note: I was wondering which bonfires would be the most strategic to kindle up to 20 estus status, but am I right in thinking that once I have the Lordvessel (and I will have it; it is ordained) it becomes fairly academic as I'd only really need one that I can teleport to as needed? Or am I being hopelessly optimistic that the game would let it be that straightforward?

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Synonamess Botch
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June 26, 2014 - 9:17 am
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am I right in thinking that once I have the Lordvessel (and I will have it; it is ordained) it becomes fairly academic as I'd only really need one that I can teleport to as needed?

This is true.  But since humanity is not that hard to come by, I typically kindle as many as I can.  Definitely the one by Andre anyway since it's used so often.  And certainly bonfires in areas you haven't finished exploring yet.

Rule #2: Double-tap

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Steerpike
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June 26, 2014 - 10:16 am
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Yeah, the one by Andrei for sure. There's a hidden tunnel that leads through the mountain, connecting Darkroot Garden and the Valley of the Drakes - it's behind an illusory wall in the area where the big stone knights are. There's a bonfire in there, and that one is very handy for the approach to New Londo. 

Firelink, obviously, if you didn't do what I did with Anastacia of Astora's soul. In many ways, though, Valley of the Drakes and Darkroot are the hubs that go everywhere, so they're where you'd want to concentrate.

Simple, if you plan to do the Tomb of the Giants next, or whenever you do it, it's a great place to farm hard Humanity. There are these little skeleton baby things that swarm you not far from where you face the boss - you'll know when you're getting there - and I recommend dicing as many as you can, and even repeating with the nearby fire. It's a pain in the ass to return to that part of the Tomb once you've completed the Lord's Soul quest in there, as the boss's room doesn't actually let you back out.

Life is the misery we endure between disappointments.

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Synonamess Botch
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June 26, 2014 - 10:33 am
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SP I think your memory is getting faulty.  That connecting tunnel with the bonfire in it is near where you find the Grass Crest Shield (and the Black Knight with the halberd).

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Helmut
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June 26, 2014 - 11:25 am
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Simple, if you have any designs on playing NG+ (which is just starting over with your character intact once you finish) the enemies deliver far more damage if you get hit. You lose the rite of kindling when you restart, but kindled fires stay kindled, so having most of the strategic firepits at 20 estus is a must for your sanity. Restarting and playing again would say something else about your sanity. 

At some stage, and I don't remember when or what caused it, I happened across a bundle of humanity sitting in the church near Andre's with the three Balder knights. It was huge, maybe 15? Maybe after the Lordvessel was acquired. I never lacked for humanity thereafter, not really needing to summon anyone for four of the last five bosses. 

My Dark Souls single player sensibilities are protected by a +10 GfWL Firewall of Ineptitude

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