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Duke Nukem question
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Helmut
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May 31, 2011 - 2:13 pm
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It seems Duke Nukem: Forever will actually ship. I hold Duke Nukem: 3D with some warmth. Shallow, likely insulting to every group except my own, a good value with the requisite number of levels and bosses with some pretty cool destruction for the time. That funky 2.5d look for looking up and down.

Anyway, what's your opinion now that the ship date nears? Puerile (god I love that word) drek that you wouldn't buy with Steerpike's Steam account, or something you might buy just to see what the fuss was about, or something you hope to see for $0.99 in the Christmas Steam sale, or somewhere between?

Me, I haven't found anything lately that's been of interest, so knowing full well that it's likely going to be a mess on several levels, I might still part with some coin on opening day just to relive 1996 again.

My Dark Souls single player sensibilities are protected by a +10 GfWL Firewall of Ineptitude

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Spike
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May 31, 2011 - 8:08 pm
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Duke Nukem is certainly not for me.  I did watch my son play some of it back then, but NO WAY am I interested in reliving 1996 in any way at all.  That was a crappy year for me.

Spend your coin, Helmut.  Have fun, and let us know what you think.

"…you just keep on trying 'til you run out of cake."

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geggis
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June 1, 2011 - 5:35 am
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Gah, I wrote a reply last night then Firefox crapped out on me.

More than anything I'm interested to see what thirteen years in development has yielded. Thirteen freakin' years.

I played a lot of Duke 3D back in the day and if Duke Nukem Forever can retain even a smidgen of its predecessor's unique brand of macho wanton carnage and yeah, puerile humour, then it'll be on form if nothing else. Whether that form is relevant in 2011 is another matter entirely. We'll just have to see which side of Bulletstorm Duke Forever falls because I think that's ultimately what it's up against. Whatever happens though, Duke Forever is finally being released and that's just… well, you see that pig flying up there?

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Toger
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June 1, 2011 - 11:00 am
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I've only played the original Duke Nukem series from Apogee Software. Once it turned into Doom with hookers, I stopped playing. [Image Can Not Be Found]

Powered by PMS ™

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Steerpike
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June 1, 2011 - 12:39 pm
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I think the key that many folks forget - and that Gearbox certainly forgot - is that it was never the character of Duke that made DN3D awesome. It was the gameplay innovations to the first person shooter. Looking up and down. Destructible environments. Clever weapon variants. Secondary fire. Interactive scenery. Open terrain. People didn't love Duke Nukem 3D because of the protagonist, they loved it in spite of him. And if Duke Forever can't bring innovation, it'll be - at best - just another shooter. Which is what I have a feeling it will be.

Life is the misery we endure between disappointments.

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Armand
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June 1, 2011 - 12:57 pm
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I'm with Toger on this one. Love the 2D stuff. The Duke3D was fun for about a day before the novelty wore off. Wouldn't buy the new one with Steerpike's accunt. 😉

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Helmut
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June 1, 2011 - 1:02 pm
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This might be better value:

 

We're clearly in the post-games-are-art era and into the are-trailers-art? discussion begin...

My Dark Souls single player sensibilities are protected by a +10 GfWL Firewall of Ineptitude

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Armand
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June 1, 2011 - 2:23 pm
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Now that looks cool! Got stuck on the crappy stealth parts of the first one. I need to give it another shot though.

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Helmut
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June 1, 2011 - 2:48 pm
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Maybe the above is modeled after this. Not for the squeamish really. An adaptation of Tetsuo's The Iron Man. Anyone seen this film? Sounds like quite a trip.

My Dark Souls single player sensibilities are protected by a +10 GfWL Firewall of Ineptitude

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Spike
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June 1, 2011 - 3:06 pm
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Followed your link, Helmut.  And read.  I have Metro 2033 in my Steam library.  Bought cheap on sale.  Haven't played yet, and not sure I will.  So while the sequel might be A+, I might not get to that one either.  As I have discovered in Stalker, I assume that in the Metro games too, the more realistic fight for daily survival produces a fear and dread that F3 (my only other RPG) didn't.  My heart beats fast and my hands sweat.  In F3 those reactions went away once I knew what I was doing.  Not so in Stalker, and probably not in the Metros either.  I don't need the adrenalin rush.  As much as I'm liking Stalker for its virtues, I'm not liking how I feel half the time when I'm playing.

Having said that, I'm willing to say that the ability of a game to provoke those emotions is what makes a game good if not great.

"…you just keep on trying 'til you run out of cake."

Scout
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June 2, 2011 - 4:47 am
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Spike said:

Followed your link, Helmut.  And read.  I have Metro 2033 in my Steam library.  Bought cheap on sale.  Haven't played yet, and not sure I will.  So while the sequel might be A+, I might not get to that one either.  As I have discovered in Stalker, I assume that in the Metro games too, the more realistic fight for daily survival produces a fear and dread that F3 (my only other RPG) didn't.  My heart beats fast and my hands sweat.  In F3 those reactions went away once I knew what I was doing.  Not so in Stalker, and probably not in the Metros either.  I don't need the adrenalin rush.  As much as I'm liking Stalker for its virtues, I'm not liking how I feel half the time when I'm playing.

Having said that, I'm willing to say that the ability of a game to provoke those emotions is what makes a game good if not great.

This is a really interesting point you bring up Spike. I've experienced a gamut of emotions in this game called STALKER. STALKER insists you work to channel everything into the next quest, to survive and then  find a place to huddle and shiver in the night. I feel lucky to stumble out into the early morning landscape with what little I have and I expect nothing in return except hopefuly my life.

In Fallout 3 the tone was more aspirational. You could bring some kind of justice, take over and change parts of the map. You were the lone stranger, the one meant to run quests, meant to FIX things, and MAKE FALLOUT 3 a better place to be. In STALKER it's every one against everyone and dog eat dog. Don't expect to get a lucky break.

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Helmut
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June 2, 2011 - 6:08 am
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In Metro the tone seemed more melancholy to me despite its nuclear winter apocalyptic setting and not nearly as grim as S.T.A.L.K.E.R.. There is an 'outside' to the zone, where conditions are normal if only your soul would chose to return to it but it seems hard to remember that perspective with all your doings.

My Dark Souls single player sensibilities are protected by a +10 GfWL Firewall of Ineptitude

Jakkar
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June 2, 2011 - 6:28 am
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Oh my. Beautiful tangents, each more interesting than the original topic.

Firstly; Duke Nukem 3d was fantastic shooter for its era, providing a constant injection of humour and unpredictability, feeling creatively hand-crafted in a way very, very few games have ever matched, or even come close to. Its level designs and freedom of player-expression had more in common with Deus Ex than with Half-Life.

Duke Nukem: Forever is more of a joke - I am very fond of Gearbox, but I have no faith that they can make good on the principles of the original game and still meet modern standards. So I think it will be a bland linear shooter with little to recommend about it but a few dirty jokes. I'd love to be proven wrong here.

Secondly; Metro 2033 was an excellent if unambitious shooter with some original survivalism aspects. It appealed powerfully to my love of level design with its truly beautiful hand-crafted environments. It made me ache for a more *complete* STALKER - for a game combining the Big World Freedom of the latter game, and the close range detail of Metro. It was, of course, dragged down badly by some clunky combat mechanics, GODAWFUL STEALTH SEQUENCES F*CKING-... And some awkward survival horror scripting. A refined sequel is a heartwarming prospect.

Finally, Spike's comments on the intense, arguably negative emotions inspired by games like STALKER are intriguing but leave me somewhat dismayed. Personally, the more intense, the more emotive a game is, in either good or bad ways... The happier I am. Or sadder, or stressed out, but ultimately glad of it.

Spike, don't let your experiences with STALKER influence your intentions to try out Metro - you've nothing to lose for the attempt. On the contrary to your expectations, Metro is largely a linear game in which your choices are little more complex than which weapon to take or leave behind, and whether or not to explore that dark corner of the station over there or just run straight toward the inviting lamplight at the other end of the platform. The intensity is that of Half-Life, the horror that of the better moments of Doom 3. It really is just another FPS, albeit one with a much better setting and with beautifully detailed environments, with hints of timed survivalism in that you have a limited supply of bullets (which double as your money) and gas mask filters (adding a time limit/element of gambling your life when in hostile environments).

Fallout 3 could not fully hook me precisely because of the lack of fear, tension, emotional connection with its world. It was quite bluntly a sandbox playground with a large variety of intensely scripted quests, and however 'dark and gritty' some of those quests were intended to feel, I felt more like a tourist in an MMORPG than a survivalist loping around a deadly wasteland. It didn't feel harsh enough to be anywhere near.. immersive. Damn that wonderful word. It has become too popular and become unfashionable as a result, but immersion remains the most valuable thing in a game, to me. Other than, perhaps, fun.

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geggis
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June 2, 2011 - 7:44 am
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Steerpike said:

I think the key that many folks forget – and that Gearbox certainly forgot – is that it was never the character of Duke that made DN3D awesome. It was the gameplay innovations to the first person shooter. Looking up and down. Destructible environments. Clever weapon variants. Secondary fire. Interactive scenery. Open terrain. People didn't love Duke Nukem 3D because of the protagonist, they loved it in spite of him. And if Duke Forever can't bring innovation, it'll be – at best – just another shooter. Which is what I have a feeling it will be.

 

Most definitely this. I didn't care much for Duke himself, but the game — that's where the allure was. The real world environments (quite rare back then) filled with little things to interact with, the neat set pieces, the varied weapons (automatic pistol, dual missile launcher, shrink ray, freeze ray, laser trip mines, pipe bombs) and equipment (jet packs!).

I had too much fun messing around with laser trip mines and pipe bombs. I remember me and a friend used to spend ages lacing the strip club with explosives. We used a cheat code to effectively give us an infinite supply of mines and bombs until the whole club was like a demolitions locker; pipe bombs kicking around the floor, laser beams almost brushing the oblivious strippers' arses. Moving around to plant more was a death wish, ducking and jumping over beams, carefully sidling along the walls. Eventually we hit the red button and despite having a Pentium 75 and 8mb of RAM we only ever used to see the first stuttering frames of the explosions because of the sheer number of them. If we were lucky we saw a bloodied chunky kibble go flying past after the ruckus. I think Duke Nukem 3D got all of that shit out of my system because I haven't done anything like that since.

Also, I'm yet to play another game that allows me to tread bloody footprints everywhere after walking through a corpse. Or do a bicycle kick for that matter. Or squish corpses between doors causing their entrails to 'stick' to the door and frame. Even blood splats behind the enemies when you shot them was new back then.

Duke 3D covered a lot of ground but it seems that DNF, at best, is only going to retread it. I remember that trailer 3D Realms released... blimey, ten years ago! At the time it looked incredible and had me wanting DNF more than I ever have. I was seriously pumped for that version. I later heard that it was a fabrication created for E3 to build hype. It worked, but where's that buzz now eh? And where's that game?

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Spike
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June 2, 2011 - 1:01 pm
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Scout said:

 I've experienced a gamut of emotions in this game called STALKER. STALKER insists you work to channel everything into the next quest, to survive and then  find a place to huddle and shiver in the night. I feel lucky to stumble out into the early morning landscape with what little I have and I expect nothing in return except hopefuly my life.
 

(Don't ya just love living in Tangentistan where normal rules like "Stick to the topic." are not enforced?)

Huddle and shiver is routine.  After finishing at X16 I went back to Bar to sleep.  In the morning, feeling great about having finished that task, I ventured out only to find that heavy rain was pouring down. Geez!  Let me revel in sunshine after my labors, fer cryin' out loud, if only for one day.

Jakkar is correct about immersion.  Most important.  In F3 I came to actually like some of the characters.  So I cared about the things they cared about.  This gave me a side to stand firmly on.  It furthered my goals to help them further theirs.

In Stalker, I have no allegiances that inform my decisions.  Oh, I do owe Sidorovich for saving my life, but everyone in this game, including Sid wants to use me for their own ends. 

The factions:  I can't choose a side.  I agree with each of them to some extent.  Disagree with each as well. 

I haven't made any emotional connection to any of the Stalker characters, and there goes the immersion potential. For me.  I think.

"…you just keep on trying 'til you run out of cake."

Finkbug
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June 3, 2011 - 12:29 am
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Jakkar said:

Firstly; Duke Nukem 3d was fantastic shooter for its era, providing a constant injection of humour and unpredictability, feeling creatively hand-crafted in a way very, very few games have ever matched, or even come close to. Its level designs and freedom of player-expression had more in common with Deus Ex than with Half-Life.

 

Aside from it being an indifferent shooter with obvious and puerile jokes I agree entirely.

There was a toilet. Cops are pigs. Must have morz plz.

grooowrrrr! [menace menace] rrrrowwwr!

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Steerpike
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June 3, 2011 - 9:07 am
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The humor was totally crass, but that didn't bother me nearly so much as the fact that Gearbox/3D Realms seem to think it was the humor that made the game. Toilets. Cop pigs. Strippers. Lowbrow humor is fine, though I wouldn't want to eat it; Bulletstorm is the same way. If I were assessing D3D on only its plot, characters, and script, I'd trash it. But I can't agree that the shooter experience was indifferent - in fact, I'd say the opposite. Destructible terrain! Real-time map deformation! Secondary fire! Cameras and vidscreens! Interactive environments (toilets, yeah... but still)! Nonlinear challenges! Perceived affordance! Fake physics! Sidesprite utilization! Y-axis action! Jumping! All that stuff was new to shooters in D3D.

No man, to me the gameplay of D3D was profoundly innovative, especially considering that it came along in the era when DOOM tech was top. The Build engine of Duke 3D was the most advanced and versatile shooter codebase of the time, capable of things no one really considered. Its legacy lives on in Unreal Technology - the man who created both, Tim Sweeney, now works at Epic.

Life is the misery we endure between disappointments.

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xtal
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June 3, 2011 - 3:17 pm
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Coming off the heels of Doom II (for me anyway) Duke 3d was a pretty sweet game. I shouldn't have been playing it at my age but worse things have happened. All I remember is the gameplay... yes, mouselook in all directions, how sweet this was. And the weapons... I exploited the shrink-then-freeze bug so many times. Putting pipe bombs in toilets. Good times.

 

I don't think anyone will care about Forever. How could you? Its legend is lost now that it leaves behind the title of "best vapor-ware ever." I don't see what it has going for it... and if it wanted to be the raunchiest shooter of 2011 well, sorry, Bulletstorm beat ya to the punch!

 

Duke himself was lame, save for a few times where they laid on the heavy Bruce Campbell shtick. Hail to the king, baby!

If being wrong's a crime I'm serving forever

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Helmut
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June 3, 2011 - 3:21 pm
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All right everybody. Act lively. We have guests coming.

 

Spike, STALKER for me started an interesting journey bigger than the game. Reading about the actual Chernobyl disaster. Reading the original fiction,  seeing the movie (since taken offline) and various other bits. Probably it's best not to overdo it though. Give it a few months/years before going on. I was tired of the whole thing by the time I finished the third game and wasn't playing them anywhere near the time they came out.

My Dark Souls single player sensibilities are protected by a +10 GfWL Firewall of Ineptitude

Finkbug
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June 3, 2011 - 11:14 pm
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Okay. I'll grudgingly agree. I'm biased in the extreme.

It definitely had many innovative mechanics. I never got over the hump of "what group of ten year olds thought this was funny?" to evaluate them. I remain unwilling to go back and see 'em fairly. Not when the original Deus Ex exists. Or, heck, Marathon. 'Course, I had much the same reaction to the original Doom. Impressive tech made by ten year olds.

grooowrrrr! [menace menace] rrrrowwwr!

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