Please consider registering
guest

sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —




— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_TopicIcon
Game Design for Assholes
Jakkar
Member
Members
March 7, 2011 - 6:37 am
Member Since: February 11, 2011
Forum Posts: 168
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
Avatar
xtal
planet
Moderator
Staff
March 7, 2011 - 11:04 pm
Member Since: April 19, 2009
Forum Posts: 1685
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Some fair points. I definitely resent an overabundance of the camera insisting I look a certain direction. Bulletstorm had a lot of this. But what can you do.

It's still not as bad as Call of Let's Go Watch a Movie.

If being wrong's a crime I'm serving forever

whitebrice
California
New Member
Members
March 8, 2011 - 3:16 am
Member Since: March 2, 2011
Forum Posts: 10
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I think what Francis is complaining about belongs to a larger problem among mainstream games--that as of late they grow more stylized without pushing towards any new ground. It's a natural occurence for any cultural discipline in which the audience for its work gets too exclusive. It happened with Ancient Egyptian tomb art and it's happening in the AAA games space. The lack of new tastes compels the people who make and sell games to appeal increasingly to the demographic that continues to buy them. In doing so they unknowingly begin to rely on a shorthand familiar to those versed in the vocabulary of the discipline but foreign to those outside it. I believe genre conventions like invincible allies, leading the player by the nose, and contstantly rewarding the player are indicative of this shorthand.

 

Now, if this were the case it would make seem to follow that the audience would diminish or at least stagnate as things just got too stylized and obviously that isn't the case. Modern Warfare 2 broke records, didn't it? This would seem to invalidate my above suggestions, but I think I can provide an explanation for the the mainstream games industry's continued growth within my model. I have no hard data to back this up--this is all purely conjecture on my part--but I think AAA games are only broadening their appeal among their target demographic. I can't tell you how many 18- to 35-year-old males were excited about CODBLOPS impending release last year at my place of employement and I'm sure the number was significantly larger than those excited for the first Modern Warfare years back, but only significantly larger withing that age group.

 

I feel it is important to make this distinction between growing market share among multiple or a single demographic because I see the games industry's predicament as mirroring that of the comics industry before it went bust. As these 18- to 35-year-olds age, they start families and end up with only a fraction of the buying power they once had. What I'm getting at is that Francis isn't taking his critique far enough. He's saying that AAA games suck now. I'm saying that because of this the AAA industry will kill itself. As I said, this is all conjecture, but I'd be willing to wager that within a decade AAA games will acount for a much smaller percentage of the dollars spent on interactive media as a whole because these types of games will not be able to broaden their appeal.

Avatar
Steerpike
Subtropical Southeastern Michigan
Admin
March 8, 2011 - 9:08 am
Member Since: April 10, 2009
Forum Posts: 3310
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Mmmm.

 

It seems that Mr Francis dislikes cutscenes and sections of games where he's not fully in control. Well, fair enough, diff'rnt strokes for diff'rnt folks and all that. But his efforts to paint himself as an asshole are so vividly effective that I kind of lost the thread of his article. He's the kind of guy who willfully goes into MMOs and griefs other players for no reason at all. He's the physical embodiment, if I read his words correctly, of John Gabriel's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory. If a game isn't letting him do what he wants (which is shoot stuff), when he wants (which is always), it's a shitty game. Thus no game in his mind has a right to try and be expressive in any other way.

I find it disingenuous to suggest that games are "trying to dictate every experience players can have." Would we complain about movies that dictate the plotline for the audience? Novels that take you through a traditional narrative arc? The nice thing about games is that you can actually have both: games that dictate your experiences and games that are freeform and leave most everything up to you. Francis is willfully ignoring those games, and being awfully hard on the others. Bulletstorm has you hit a button to look at special events. This is a carryover from Gears of War; adding points to it is, yes, a way to help ensure that the player does what they're supposed to.

I just get the feeling that if it weren't for that prompt, Francis would be complaining that sometimes enemies come in behind you in Bulletstorm and there's no way of knowing that. His argument boils down to "I don't like noninteractive scenes." Well, I don't like them either, but when you take them within the context of the WHOLE GAME you have to be fair. Bulletstorm does open slow - too slow. After that there are maybe eight minutes of totally noninteractive cutscenes in 7 hours of game.

Not having played CODBLOPS or, say, Metal Gear Solid 4, I can't speak to whether they're a little over the top in noninteractive stuff. But this article seems like it's trying awfully hard to extract one ingredient from a much more complicated recipe and complain about that.

Life is the misery we endure between disappointments.

Jakkar
Member
Members
March 8, 2011 - 4:49 pm
Member Since: February 11, 2011
Forum Posts: 168
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Well thought-out point, whitebrice. That is certainly a factor, and we'll see it come into play as that demographic ages and becomes distracted from casual gaming.

Ah, that word. Casual. Can something as mega-popular and as violent as Modern Warfare be casual? That's the way I think of it... It is played mindlessly, and without meaning to generalise too harshly (I'm speaking very lightly), the Call of Duty mass is largely played by relatively mindless people. Those seeking a deep or engaging experience, tactical teamwork, vehicular integration, realism and varied terrain will go to Battlefield, to Arma, to Red Orchestra and to darker, deeper places - the Swamps of Simulation. Just floating off on a tangent - it struck me as strange to realise I consider Modern Warfare, Team Fortress 2 and the like to be as casual as Plants Versus Zombies. Same light-hearted, grind-your-face-intio-the-screen repetitive action, with distinct boundaries and simplified mechanics.

I have to admit, it's not just the forced movement, the invisible walls and camera manipulation that bothers me. I don't even want carefully designed silhoettes. I don't want friendly fire mitigation. I WANT to get lost and have to search for my route, or choose my own. I WANT confusion, I WANT to be forced to think. How can any marketting goon keep a straight face as he bills Call of Duty as an authentic warfare experience while the developers sit desperately fighting to remove all the chaos and ambiguity of battle action, and the morality of war.

Don't assume from my attitude that I dislike Call of Duty. I am disgusted by it, upon my principles as a designer and my passion for deeper gameplay experiences, but I enjoy running around having a simple adventure and shooting baddies in the face as much as anyone, when I'm in that kind of mood... But sometimes it still goes too far, and even in the midst of good fun, they can really spoil my day.

I think the worst moment was during Call of Duty: World at War's singleplayer campaign, as the Russians. Later in the game, when the brave boys in brown are pushing Zee Germanz out of the city, fighting through subways and across streets, you come upon a scripted sequence during which you have free movement and the ability to fire - a gang of Russian troops have corned some surrendering German troops in a locked subway staircase. I spent 20 minutes there, reloading, trying to stop the war crime unfolding.

Think what you want of me. This wasn't roleplay, this wasn't my imagination running riot as it often does - this was a cold and uncomfortable realisation that even though it was a game, I could not be myself and not react to what I was seeing.

You're hinted at with a choice here that will influence the conclusion of the game in a small way. It's a morality toy, a gimmick here mildly and subtly employed that in other games forms the very backbone of the experience (Fable, Mass Effect). You can kill the German soldiers yourself or you can let the Russian troops burn them alive using Molotov cocktails.

Rather than let them do that to men who had peacefully surrendered I tried a number of things. Being a Russian POW is no picnic but surely any chance of life is better than immediate death. So I tried protesting by standing infront of the prisoners.

Nope. The Russian troops won't acknowledge your presence, and will fire regardless, right through you - without harming you.

... So I tried killing the ringleaders of the gang of vengeful sadists. Nope, my bullets are magical too!

Really, I don't care if I get shot by the Commisar for my actions. Is it so hard to simply impart basic friendly fire mechanics with AI who shoot back if you shoot their friends? Can't I die for a cause here, like they're insisting I do with every charge into enemy fire? Personally, I find these moments a lot more interesting than the general run and gun combat of Call of Duty. No. They put more effort into locking you down than it would take to give you freedom.

The obsession with controlling the player is growing out of control itself - it is becoming habitual, traditional. As whitebrice put it, it's becoming shorthand, an exclusive language and method used by developers that they unconsciously perpetuate over generations of games. Meanwhile, basic capitalism, the survival of the successful and the monopolisation of the field by those who succeed ensures that few new ideas are getting in. I remember when almost every major game had something unique, something all of its own. An idea of merit, a passionate goal. And now I'm just grumping about greed. Dash it all.

 

Ah, Steerpike!

You bring up the most pervasive quality of the article; the ability of Francis to make anyone of any kind of moral fibre despise him to his very bones. It's difficult to hold on to whatever point he's making through the uncomfortable anxiety, the fear that he might actually be serious. He could actually be that awful. In which case what we think of his point is less relevant than whether or not there is any way we can get away with having this man lobotomised.

Nonetheless, by being a loud and obnoxious kind of writer (or possibly just one who doesn't know when to drop his act, I dare hope), he attracts more attention to a subject that deserves it - and attracts dev attention from a studio we're all rather fond of, lately 🙂

I'm listening to Tubular Bells as I write. It's making this feel a lot more epic than it is.

Mmm. I can see he has hit a particular sore spot with you. You describe his motivations and perceive his intentions in much the same way I see that bastard Ben Croshaw. Zero Punctuation was a work of excellent comedy for the first five episodes, before he simply kept up the tirade of abuse for the sake of... Well, I do hope he was being paid. Else there's just no excuse for the way he kept going, and going.

I do appreciate loud/obnoxious attitudes in writing - it's a style I share at times. The blasphemously irreverent, the abrasively blunt and the sharply sarcastic are condiments I love to garnish a dish with... Perhaps this one just went too far over too small a thing. Wilfully ignoring the fact that many games -do- promote freedom (mostly outside the mainstream), and failing to acknowledge that Bulletstorm dives wholeheartedly and self-aware into crude simplicity... He comes across as more of a whining child than a games journalist.

...

Regarding the PCF response to his article though, it only makes it clear what we all already know. To be blunt;

Bad games (by our standards) are made because most people are fuckwits and cannot appreciate or survive complex and challenging simulated experiences.

Established studios with offices and wages need a decent income, and appealing to the 'elite' minority who want something deep and thought-provoking just isn't good business sense.

But let's look on the bright side - film-makers did eventually find ways around this. Films like Terminator and The Matrix, animes like Ghost in the Shell manage to weave complex and intelligently considered storylines alongside exciting action. We -can- coexist with the fuckwit. We can enjoy the same thing for different reasons, IF developers can meet the challenge. If, only if more developers will realise, as Valve has, that you can hire people with good ideas, writers capable of invoking humour and emotion, and make a 'fun' game that nonetheless has something more to it.

Eventually, this comes to what I believe about the future of gaming - collaboration between studios will become mandatory as the most successful games continue to be hybrids. Total War works by having competent strategy AND entertaining action. Grand Theft Auto succeeds by mixing shooting AND vehicles (and in San Andreas, fairly varied character RPG mechanics). Most of the best regarded games ever made are hyrid FPS/RPGs, such as Deus Ex, System Shock 2, Morrowind, Vampire: Bloodlines and STALKER.

I'm hoping as games like Deus Ex 3 blend compelling RPG mechanics with increasingly fluid and exciting combat as well as high quality graphics, we'll see the industry lumber slowly away from the shallow, mindless but somewhat entertaining shit into a vague compromise between depth and 'LOL SHINY' grunt appeal.

*hurls himself away from the keyboard in a dramatic slow motion dive, to make pancakes and TYPE NO MORE!*

Avatar
kaythomas
Somewhere in the frozen tundra
Member
Members
March 15, 2011 - 1:00 am
Member Since: April 16, 2009
Forum Posts: 307
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

jakkar said ………..
I'm not going to comment upon this – for I am known to ramble exhaustively. I am going to ask for your thoughts upon it.

THEN I might ramble exhaustively 🙂

And then he did. [Image Can Not Be Found]   But that is fine because he started this interesting discussion and after giving people a time to voice thier thoughts,  he voiced his.   As he should.

This discussion made me think about my evolution as a gamer.   And here is my reaction.   As someone who was for years a dyed-in-the-wool, point-and-click, adventure game player,   I have never felt constrained by the lack of total  freedom I found when I moved (very slowly) into other types of games such as Thief, Deus Ex, System Shock, Mafia, Morrowind etc., etc/  

These game confronted me  with  an incrediably amount of freedom (and accompaning anxiety — which I found addicting) compared to adventure games.   But then my goal has always been driven by exploration and  story rather than killing.  So I am a fairly happy camper with the games I can find to play.

 

Jakkar also said……..Most of the best regarded games ever made are hyrid FPS/RPGs, such as Deus Ex, System Shock 2, Morrowind, Vampire: Bloodlines and STALKER.

The games that combine FPS/RPG plus a well developed story and some character development seem to be the ones that captivate me. 

That's it for me.  Kay

Imagine life with no hypothetical situations. 

Avatar
Steerpike
Subtropical Southeastern Michigan
Admin
March 15, 2011 - 9:05 am
Member Since: April 10, 2009
Forum Posts: 3310
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Great points, Kay. Your evolution from a dyed-in-the-wool adventure gamer to what you play now is an important thing to consider. Many people who have been gamers for a long time have found themselves evolving beyond their "traditional" genres, or even if they haven't, they've become very used to what is and is not possible in games. This tolerance can lead to complacency in how we play, but it also sets logical parameters for what works in games. My chief complaint about the Francis article Jakkar shared is that his attitude seems to be dictatorial - "I'm a jerk, AND you should make games the way I want you to, AND any other way is wrong." It seems like there can be some middle ground there.

 

Plus, People Can Fly's patient response illuminated that Mr Francis doesn't know much about the technical realities of making games. One of the most telling items was when Adrian Chmielarz noted that it's better to have a short, noninteractive conversation (or elevator ride) than a static loading screen.

 

"The future of shooters is RPGs." I keep coming back to that now famous agreement between Harvey Smith and Cliff Bleszinski. More and more it seems to be true, and history seems to show its validity - gamers with tastes as disparate as myself, Jakkar, and Kay can all agree that a certain style of game has been the most memorable and most immersive to us, that's saying something.

Life is the misery we endure between disappointments.

Avatar
xtal
planet
Moderator
Staff
March 15, 2011 - 4:23 pm
Member Since: April 19, 2009
Forum Posts: 1685
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Jakkar, I don't know how the hell you write so much in what seem to be single-sitting type-a-thons, but keep them coming. You have a lot of stuff floating around in your brain, friend. I'm beginning to think you are a semi-crazy person.  [Image Can Not Be Found]

 

Instead of going on about forty-five tangents here, I'll just tackle one: the whole Call of Duty-ification of gamespace (<word? meh). The series will die off eventually simply for logistical reasons. They can't call a game Modern Warfare 4 because Call of Duty 4 was Modern Warfare 1. Getting to a fourth Modern Warfare just seems silly. Maybe I'll be wrong and there will be five of them. But there can absolutely not be a Modern Warfare 6. What series (popular ones) have ever gone to 6 aside from Final Fantasy? And FF had the advantage of sexy Roman numerals from the start. They'll have to add more colons or hyphen; else it's just begin a new sub-named franchise. Probably the future. Sigh.

Anyway, I had a point. The point is that from whatever perspective you look at it Call of Duty is ruined. From the perspective of the people who still like it, the market is totally saturated with its ilk and the actual quality of the games is not getting better. That equals a lose. From the perspective of people who are now fundamentally opposed to it beacuse it's trash for simpletons and not real, cool, hardcore, core-- or whatever we call ourselves now-- gamers, we're just more fed up with it than ever. Fed up and tired. That's another lose.

Where is the franchise actually winning these days? I guess the zillions of dollars it rakes in and the trillians of people who still play "Blops" and "Em Dubs." Sigh.

ANYWAY, my real point was the following. The state that the series is now in ... all the backlash it receives ... well it just makes me sad that my favourite WWII game (Call of Duty, of course) is lumped in with all this shit. The name is tainted forever.

But does anyone remember Call of Duty. The game. Not the epic blunderfuck that it exists as today. By the end of that game I was on the verge of tears; physically and mentally demolished. Call of Duty was new, unmolested territory in 2003. It was the first and only game that really conveyed to me the horrors of that "Second Great War."

 

I'm sad that its children are assholes.

 

It was such a beautiful game.

If being wrong's a crime I'm serving forever

Avatar
Steerpike
Subtropical Southeastern Michigan
Admin
March 16, 2011 - 9:16 am
Member Since: April 10, 2009
Forum Posts: 3310
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Was it Call of Duty that opened with the D-Day invasion? Or was that Medal of Honor? I mixed them up, I think.

I do agree with you, xtal - Call of Duty as it exists right now is kind of a $60 map pack. Most people buy it and go straight online, just to multiplay in the new maps. That's really about it. Most gamers will also zip through the single player at some point, but that 5-hour investment isn't the core of the game. And since they can still sell 15 million units at $60, even though it's just a glorified map pack, they have no cause to sell maps on the cheap.

I never bought BLOPS and never finished MW2. I play splitscreen with friends often, but that's to hang out with my friends. I'd never play online. I hate those people.

Life is the misery we endure between disappointments.

Avatar
xtal
planet
Moderator
Staff
March 17, 2011 - 11:15 pm
Member Since: April 19, 2009
Forum Posts: 1685
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Can you believe, according to Steam, that I've played 73 hours of Modern Warfare 2 multiplayer? That's cause I played a ton with some old mates the first few months it came out. I've spent-- also according to steam-- 76 minutes in the single player game, and I think that was actually the co-op, not the campaign.

 

And that's MW2. The first Modern Warfare... god, I must've played hundreds of hours online. Surpassed only ever by perhaps Raven Shield, Ghost Recon, or Diablo II.

I don't feel so bad about the time spent on Modern Warfare... more the sequel that shocks me. I mean, it's the same game. They changed a few perks around. That's it.

If being wrong's a crime I'm serving forever

Forum Timezone: America/Detroit

Most Users Ever Online: 252

Currently Online:
8 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

Spike: 1187

Pokey: 894

Jarrod: 607

Finkbug: 468

Armand: 318

kaythomas: 307

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 9

Members: 15030

Moderators: 18

Admins: 6

Forum Stats:

Groups: 1

Forums: 4

Topics: 816

Posts: 18549

Newest Members:

HoustonPulge, DayanaNow, Janehoats, Robertanage, Brianexarf, XXXIsr

Moderators: Jen: 631, Orb: 0, Scout: 1205, Toger: 1488, Yapette: 836, Dobralov: 17, xtal: 1685, Meho: 82, Tap-Repeatedly: 0, geggis: 1435, Lewis B: 214, Mat: 245, AJLange: 200, Dix: 483, Cheeta: 0, LewisB: 0, Amy Louise: 12, l0vetemper: 3

Administrators: admin: 2, MrLipid: 31, Steerpike: 3310, Helmut: 795, Synonamess Botch: 1127, heddhunter: 27