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Horizon Zero Dawn
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Steerpike
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April 24, 2017 - 1:29 pm
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Botch, try Shadow of Mordor. It's another real standout in this "type" of open world game.

Life is the misery we endure between disappointments.

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Synonamess Botch
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April 24, 2017 - 2:16 pm
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You will not regret Silent Strike.  I consider it a core component.  You will also not regret spreading things around.  One could argue that a weakness of the game is a lack of "build" variety.  I disagree.  This game focuses on one style, with what I would call minor variations around it, and it is better for that focus.  It is not like Dark Souls and that is not a criticism.  Much as I love DS, I don't need every game to be it.

Yes, the the first Cauldron really got my imagination going.  It not only represented some great story/world building, it also bestowed some genuine practical benefits.  I've seen some argue that the Cauldrons represent the game's best content.

I won't say anything about the Vantage points, other than please find them all, even if you ignore the other collect-a-thon stuff.  They're not so much about the stuff as the story being told.

Botch, did you give much credence to the supposed "recommended level" or whatever it's supposed to be for each mission. Like that first Cauldron, it said Level 8 on it. I found it kinda tough and was level 11 I believe. And based on an object I found in the earliest ruins that can be entered, I think I'm being pointed to another set of ruins; but the recommended level is 25, which is way higher than anything else at the moment.

I did, but I think "recommended" can be considered a loose guideline.  If nothing else, given your stealthiness you can recon an area first to see what you're up against.  Also, don't let that level 25 number dissuade you from checking out that ruin.  You'll see what I mean when you get there.

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Synonamess Botch
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April 24, 2017 - 2:29 pm
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Steerpike said
Botch, try Shadow of Mordor. It's another real standout in this "type" of open world game.  

I was really interested in that game when it came out but I came to a realization, and I'm afraid I'm going to show my snobbish side now: I loathe the interpretation of LoTR made popular by Peter Jackson's movies.  Whatever merits this game has would be tainted by that fact.

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Steerpike
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April 25, 2017 - 9:51 am
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Ah, yes, then you might want to give Shadow of Mordor a pass. It's about as Peter Jackson-y an interpretation as can get. Admittedly I really liked the Jackson version of Lord of the Rings, and it's certainly possible to spend most of the game not thinking about Lords and Rings and Mordor and stuff, but it can't be avoided altogether and if you're not a fan, this would likely turn you off.

I want to return to Horizon for a change of pace from Persona as well, to take advantage of its big rolling vistas and its way of encouraging you to check stuff out. Horizon's unstructured, rambling style, and its habit of really knocking your socks off with moments of visual arrest, really can't be beat in anything available right now.

Life is the misery we endure between disappointments.

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xtal
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April 25, 2017 - 11:42 am
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I'm in the Jackson camp too. I was 17 when the first of those films came out; it was a much better experience for me. I enjoyed The Hobbit (book) quite a bit, but bailed on the Fellowship less than halfway through the book.

What the films certainly didn't capture (probably for the sake of the audience) was just how much singing is in those books. God damn! So much. And Tom Bombadil of course. Some of my friends who were Tolkien readers didn't like the lack of Tom.

But yeah, I love those movies because I hadn't read any Tolkien and had no standard in my mind to compare or live up to.

There's a scene, in the extended edition of the first film, where Sam and Frodo have just left the Shire, and they're cooking up one hell of a breakfast in a nice cast iron skillet; one of the great-- but brief-- food scenes ever.

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Steerpike
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April 25, 2017 - 1:38 pm
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We basically share that view, xtal. I enjoyed the Hobbit but found Fellowship of the Ring unendurable, just unpleasant to read, like a bad textbook. I'd tried a few times to finish it but never succeeded until the movie came along, and I thought to myself if someone saw all of this in those books, then I should read them. And I managed the entire trilogy, though in the end I'll take the films any day.

It's the same way I feel about Lovecraft. Ideas? Great. Execution? Should have left it to someone else.

Peter Jackson must have spent all his directorial mana on that trilogy and his films before it, because he hasn't done anything since that comes close to the visual strength of his early career. 

Shadow of Mordor is impressive partly because it feels like it could be part of the movie canon, so I definitely can't recommend it to anyone who was unhappy with the films. Still, there are elements of the game design itself that are just amazing. The Nemesis system is famous, of course; I also loved the elegance of the hand to hand combat. Only real drawback there was that once mastered from a controller standpoint, there wasn't much challenge left in the game.

Life is the misery we endure between disappointments.

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Synonamess Botch
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April 25, 2017 - 2:20 pm
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I don't know what I'm going to do with you two philistines.  Peter Jackson should be tried and executed for what he did to Tolkien's work.  No, just summarily executed.  I hopefully watched all three and even got the DVD box set.  The making-of parts are vastly more interesting than the movies themselves, which are pure schlock.

LoTR is one of my favorite books ever, but I forgive you both for your heretical statements although you deserve nothing of the sort.

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Steerpike
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April 25, 2017 - 2:51 pm
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But the books have... Tom Bombadil and Goldberry! The books are like... stop.... STOP... SINGING... the world is going to end and everyone is SINGING!

Then the Elvish. Oh sweet Jesus the Elvish. Pages of E'lu'aaa'lilmardil 'a 'find'el 's'i'l'maril eathrua'etc'etc'etc'etc

WHAT THE FUCK DOES THAT EVEN MEAN?

Plus there's no Cate Blanchett in the books. I mean there's the character she plays but there's no actual her. Anything with Cate Blanchett is inherently superior to anything without, right? Isn't that a universal rule of some sort?

Life is the misery we endure between disappointments.

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geggis
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April 27, 2017 - 6:42 am
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Synonamess Botch said
I don't know what I'm going to do with you two philistines. [...] LoTR is one of my favorite books ever.  

I'm with you Botch! I felt empty at the end of the books (or single tome as I had) and the appendices only helped so much.

Steerpike, you've never been to Wales have you? My dad's side of the family are Welsh and they originate from a place called Ynysybwl.

Ynysybwl (Welsh: Ynys-y-bŵl [ənɪsəˈbʊl]) is a village in Cwm Clydach in Wales. It is situated in the county borough of Rhondda Cynon Taf, roughly 15 miles (24 km) north-north-west of Cardiff, 5 miles (8 km) north of Pontypridd and 16 miles (26 km) south of Merthyr Tydfil, and forms part of the community of Ynysybwl and Coed-y-cwm.

Wales is not located in Middle Earth believe it or not! 😉

This is a fascinating article btw about Tolkien's methodology and meticulous eye for detail: https://www.wired.com/2015/10/see-jrr-tolkien-lord-of-the-rings-middle-earth-illustrations-for-first-time/

In two diagrams, “Map of Rohan, Gondor, and Mordor” and “Distances and dates in Mordor,” we see Tolkien’s supremely obsessive efforts to calculate the motions and locations of Frodo and Sam to the last millimeter (where 1 mm equals 5 miles). Topographic contour lines show mountains and the pitch of slopes. Why all the fuss? Tolkien wanted their journey to Mount Doom to sync with Aragorn’s battle at the Black Gate. For fantasy to work, it must adhere to believable time-space principles. In a letter to his publisher’s proofreader, he revealed his writing process. He “started with a map, and made the story fit (generally with meticulous care for distances),” adding that its reverse, “to compose a map from a story” is “weary work.”

Incredible stuff. I also got J.R.R. Tolkien: Artist and Illustrator for Christmas off Hailey and it's beautiful. What a creative force and visionary.

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Steerpike
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April 27, 2017 - 10:26 am
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Perhaps I am a Philistine. I certainly approve of Tolkien's contribution to the world of literature (so long as I don't have to read it again) and -- as my name implies -- I err more on the Mervyn Peake end of the spectrum when it comes to preference for foundational fantasy literature. It's not surprising that the language and structure of LoTR turned me off, given the effort Tolkien put in to make it a scholarly work and/or to make it read and feel like a traditional fable telling. The result, though, felt to me like a college textbook in a context where I wasn't wanting to read a college textbook. It could be a simple matter of expecting one flavor and getting another.

Except Tom Bombadil. I can't stand that guy. Someone should have told him to cut Tom fricking Bombadil. Aside from the character's general skill at being irritating, it's sort of a rookie mistake when it comes to fiction, isn't it? We have this terribly powerful object that needs to be destroyed and it's going to be really hard to do. There is this one WOODLAND GOD who's hella powerful himself and could easily deal with it for us, and he lives like fifteen miles away too, but... er... um... he's too scatterbrained! That's it! 

No. Just no. Just cut the character and, if you must, put his dialogue elsewhere (which I believe they did; I think Gandalf had some Bombadilian lines in the movies).

Welsh and Old English befuddle me, I admit. All that Ydrwwwyl and ddwwdylwdd and cnn-y-nnc and such. Especially when "Ydrwwwyl" is actually pronounced, you know, something like "Gloomtuber-on-Fen" or whatever. You have to applaud their efficiency, though... we have 26 letters, but looking at Welsh they must have had only three or four. Yet they understood each other!

Life is the misery we endure between disappointments.

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Synonamess Botch
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May 1, 2017 - 1:45 pm
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Thank you Gregg.  Gotta get some culture around here somehow.  😉

OK I admit it, Bombadil is not exactly my favorite character either.  But then again, I appreciate that Tolkien sort of thumbed his nose at some "proper rules" for fiction writing.  I'm not sure what it is about Tolkien that I find so inspiring.  For a counter-example, I find Michael Moorcock, Terry Brooks, and David Eddings to be utter trash.  I'm not really up on who the best regarded fantasy and/or science fiction authors are these days.

Can you tell me why people seem to enjoy ridiculing the Welsh so much?  Or is that a false impression?  I'll say one thing, Welsh women are hawwwt!

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Steerpike
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May 2, 2017 - 9:20 am
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Botch and Gregg are our Culture Ambassadors!

I'm not certain who's really thought of as tops in fantasy these days either. George RR Martin seems to have fallen out of favor somewhat given that his books have gone rather off the rails (though HBO is doing a great job of fixing the breaks he's introduced). Tolkien gave us Tom Bombadil, which is hard for me to overlook, but nobody can argue that his contribution was otherwise seminal. It's the same with Lovecraft, whose work is even more unpleasant to read in my opinion. Yet we do appreciate him! If it weren't for Lovecraft, tentacles would be limited to Japanese pornography. Horror would be lacking a crucial appendage.

My kitten knocked the Horizon disc off the TV table and batted it across the floor. I finally found it again last night, underneath the dryer. To my relief, the disc was Important Side Up during her assault, so it still worked fine when I tested it out. Also, it's fluffy and smells nice.

Life is the misery we endure between disappointments.

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xtal
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May 16, 2017 - 9:10 am
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Bringing this thread back on topic (gasp!), I made it to Meridian last night. This was also the first time I ventured west past Daytower, period. The vibe out in this area was cool, and something I'm glad marketing didn't spoil, at least that I noticed. Horizon and Zelda both got marketing very right for their games. Both gave a sense of gameplay and the world, but kept many surprises in store. Bravo, games.

So I imagine it's scripted that you'll pass a Thunderjaw on the road to Meridian. Quite close to it, actually. I avoided it completely until noticing some Carja spearmen walking along the road toward it. I followed them and sure enough they set up to fight it. I put my newly-purchased Ropecaster to good use and joined them. It was my favourite fight in the game so far. It must have taken at least 10 minutes, but after dozens of ropes to lock the thing down a number of times, dozens more fire arrows, and a bit of luck with picking up one of the Carja's dropped heavy weapons (a "disc launcher"?), I took it down. It was pretty thrilling.

I don't always like combat in this game, sometimes it moves too quickly for me; but it also has moments like that which are great.

Anyway, the approach to Meridian was very cool; I want to know what the hell the giant monolith adjacent to the city is. Arriving in the city felt a bit anticlimactic. I guess I was hoping for some more moments of awe that didn't come, but oh well. After getting a taste of some of the terrain in the west I look forward even more to further exploration.

If being wrong's a crime I'm serving forever

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Synonamess Botch
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May 16, 2017 - 2:55 pm
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Yeah that Thunderjaw.  The most fun I had against them was brutalizing them with their own weapons.

It's no spoiler to point out that Meridian is central to the game's story.  One of my criticisms is that the various factions related to this city were not clearly explained.  It wasn't a huge mental leap to figure out who was whom but still I think they could have done a better job here.  I suppose one could argue that the game lets you figure these things out in a more organic manner rather than giving you a bunch of exposition dumps.

I may have already mentioned this, but by the time I reached Meridian, I had done quite a bit of exploring and, by extension, leveling up.  One of the characters mentioned that much had changed since we last met.  That simple statement rang very true and really bumped up the immersion factor.

I could say more about that monolith, but to do so would venture into spoiler territory.

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Steerpike
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May 18, 2017 - 9:04 am
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Man, I still have the Horizon box balanced against my TV to remind me that I need to return to it. Persona has taken up permanent residence in the PS4 but Horizon totally deserves attention. I notice a number of patches have come down, anything noticeable change-wise?

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xtal
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May 18, 2017 - 10:55 am
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Yes: the complaint made earlier in this thread, the one about buying the collectibles maps and having that ruin the world map. That was addressed with a feature that lets you filter out not only those, but any type of map marker. Which is good because Horizon's map is pretty goddamn messy.

So I kept pressing onward last night! Went even further west to the Tallneck out there. That area seems crazy dangerous. I had to be very careful to get on the thing without starting any fights.

Also I went to Maker's End and continued with the main quest because I want to know all the things. Oh, and I guess I know a bit more now about the title of the game! I've had a theory since the very beginning...I'll report back whether it was a good guess later.

 

Let me just say, for anyone who may struggle now or later with a this-or-that choice, definitely play this game instead of Mass Effect Andromeda. If you're like man there's only time for one game, make it this one. I can't stress enough how much more enjoyable Horizon has been. The only exception I can see is if you have severe "open world fatigue" and are a deep Mass Effect dork.

Lastly, I've been trying to think of all the video game protagonists of recent memory (in games that I've played)-- silent ones not included-- and so far I can't think of one that I like more than Aloy. She's just...man she's a woman after my own heart. And I figure that feeling resonates with a lot of people. It's just so goddamn refreshing to have a protagonist who's like nah, fuck all this crazy shit, gimme some hot knowledge; don't gimme nonsense, I want all the truths.

I imagine Aloy's tinder profile would go like this: Spunky, tall redhead; energetic but easy-going. Goal-oriented and driven by a thirst for knowledge. Small talk is cool, but wouldn't you rather talk about big things? A deep love of the outdoors and respect for nature; take what you need and leave the rest. Spiritual lifestyle though skeptical. A reliable friend and fierce bringer and seeker of honesty. Love road trips.

I have a big crush on her coolness.

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Steerpike
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May 18, 2017 - 1:19 pm
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That was the greatest post in the history of this site.

Also: great news about the map-filtering. I'd forgotten, but it was a real irritant of mine.

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xtal
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Steerpike said
That was the greatest post in the history of this site.

Have I won a set of keys to one of the silos we own? I think an underground bunker might be very useful in the coming months/years.

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Synonamess Botch
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May 18, 2017 - 5:30 pm
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Xtal your talk of exploration has already given me some tinges of nostalgia and I only just finished the game a short while ago.  It also reminds me of how enjoyable simple exploration is in this game.  It is very easy to create your own narrative.  But unlike some games which encourage open-world exploration (looking at you Bethesda) going off on your own never really feels like an abandonment of the main thread.  It all fits together extremely well.

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xtal
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Yeah speaking of exploration, I had a great moment last night. I was back in the eastern Nora area just exploring some places I was pretty sure I hadn't yet been. Hunting for some animal bones and skins, soon I found myself lost in a thick wooded area in the dark of night. I emerged onto a scene that was both chilling and calm; just some rusted out frames of cars and lampposts. I don't know what it was about that place but it was eerie. Then, after climbing up a nearby structure, I found another vantage point and, unless there is some serious misleading going on, I believe I finally found out where the game takes place.

I thought that might be some sort of "reveal" with a touch of spectacle later on. Maybe that will still happen. This was a bit anticlimactic (I've said that twice now) but nonetheless cool.

I'd love to talk to the writers and world designers of this game. Despite building their game in the style of so many other games of the past 15 years, it's deeply original

I like it so much I have to nitpick. I wish there were more unique characters and fewer unnamed NPCs. Only because so many of the characters I have met are so well thought out - I just want more. But there's enough on offer that said complaint is minor. Hell, aside from all the great characters I've met and beautiful sights seen, you could play this game as your personal Godzilla simulator if you wanted to: Overriding robots and watching them fight each other to the death. That alone would make this a fine game.

If being wrong's a crime I'm serving forever

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