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Control Freaks
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Synonamess Botch
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October 10, 2013 - 1:08 pm
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With the recent discussions I've read about how the new Thief game will alternately suck/be-awesome, I'd like to raise the topic of player control in video games.

Specifically, I'm talking about how controls have evolved.  For instance, Thief, among others things dispenses with a jump button, and makes that action contextual.  It also adds an explicit "swoop" action which is presumably used for darting between shadows.  Gears of War introduced the notion of an explicit cover mechanism, instead of just positioning oneself behind a wall.

In general, I've liked these innovations.  Gears of War is one of my all-time favorite games partially because it made things such as cover and even reloading into discrete actions that, for me, enhanced the gameplay.  However, where I think these things fail are the instances in which they do too much.  The "press a button to be awesome" style turns me off.

I'm talking mostly about third- or first-person games, but am not trying to restrict the conversation.  What do you all think of the evolution of game controls?  Love them?  Hate them?  Ambivalent?  Discuss!

 

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Dix
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October 10, 2013 - 1:58 pm
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I think Gears just popularized the cover system by being the first pretty good game with one.  I think a handful of other games with a similar system predated it.  The reloading thing was all Gears, though, I believe.

Anywise: I like discrete button presses to do things (like take cover) because I find it makes some games less ambiguous about what state you're in.  For instance, in some of those games that make your character take cover simply by being close to cover, it can become a little fiddly to "unstick" yourself from it to do something else if you don't want to actually dramatically relocate.

Still, it seems like trends are slowly heading toward "smarter" environments that contectualize what you're doing without you actually having to tell it to, on what I think is the erroneous assumption that pushing a button takes people out of the action.  I can't think of a good example right now so maybe I'm just blowing smoke.  Dunno.

"Home is not a place.  It is wherever your passion takes you."

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geggis
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October 13, 2013 - 4:47 am
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I'll be honest, I've never been a fan of cover systems apart from Uncharted's, even The Last of Us's was awkward at times. Deus Ex Human Revolution's worked well given that first person games usually have you looking at the back of crate or wall when you're hiding! I think this is one of the reasons why a lot of stealth games feature an x-ray vision mode because they'd rather you be able to see more than the cover you're behind. I turned off the listen mode in The Last of Us because it just felt stupid and as a Thief vet (with a surround sound system), not knowing exactly where somebody is and having to use your ears and head to work out where they are is really cool to me.

As for jumping being contextual, I much prefer the sound of that for most games. I've always hated people bunny hopping around in multiplayer games (Quake Wars, TF2, all the Battlefields), so to make that a contextual action would totally eradicate that issue. I remember playing my buddies on local Halo deathmatch and absolutely thrashing them despite having never played Halo before (I still haven't) and being bad with a pad on first person shooters. My trick was to keep jumping around which made it very hard for them to shoot me, even though it looks absolutely ridiculous. Yes, I could out shoot them still doing this but it was a cheap trick.

A similar thing is going on in Natural Selection 2 where marines go into jump-around-shooting-randomly-like-an-idiot mode whenever an alien gets near them. If you watch the NS2 trailers they look great but what they don't show is how real fights go down. They look more like this (usually skulks die much quicker hence the guy's reaction towards the end!). It's an easier way of surviving a bit longer in the hopes of killing them before they kill you. A lot of people have lobbied for the jump height to be reduced and to have a cooldown or some other drawback applied to it (sapping stamina or preventing shooting at the same time) but all the hardcore veteran asshats insist that it was part of the original Natural Selection which had strafe-jumping and everything in it ie. all the bullshit which turned me off Quake Wars. Brink implemented the Smart Movement Across Random Terrain system (SMART!) which was really cool and far more realistic, and as a result was no good for dodging and being a jerk. But the hardcore veteran asshats on the forums wanted strafe-jumping back in, bunny hopping back in, and said SMART was sluggish and horrible. I thought it was awesome and commended Splash Damage for going that route but I found out that Splash had tried to implement strafe-jumping but it didn't jive well with SMART so they had to ditch it. So that was disappointing they wanted that in, apparently.

Battlefield 3 has a kind of mantle, similar to Thief (which was seriously way ahead of its time with proper leaning round corners, leaning forwards to look over edges(!) and mantling), Brink and Dishonored where you could pull yourself over terrain, which is great. Battlefield 3 as far as I could see didn't suffer from Bunny Hoppus Jumpitus either so presumably jumping was relatively useless outside vaulting over obstacles, they way it ought to be.

Remember Zelda and auto-jump when you ran at an edge? I thought that was pretty forward thinking because it worked so well.

Titanfall looks like it'll hop over some of these issues entirely by having super movement (double jet pack jumps, wall running and who knows what else) built into the fiction of the game and balanced accordingly, similar to Tribes: Ascend. I think my issue with all these physics manipulation tricks is that they feel like exploits that you have to adopt to stay in the game or risk being horribly stunted. Mario Kart DS was nigh on unplayable in online multiplayer because a large proportion of players used 'snaking' to win. I could snake myself but refused to because it was cheap and hurt my hands. Seriously, check that out. How fucking stupid is that? And look at the finger gymnastics required to keep that up. No way am I condoning that when my girlfriend was proud as punch for mastering drifting and drift boosts! Thankfully local multiplayer was awesome.

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Steerpike
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October 13, 2013 - 11:44 am
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Gears deserves a lot of credit for making a slick and elegant cover system that was really the basis of the game. It might not have been the first, but it was definitely the one that made it work. One day I suspect people will look back on Gears and realize how innovative that series was, and how much it revitalized shooters. We owe it a big vote of thanks.

Thief's mantling and leaning never got old. The latter really made stealth possible in first person, and I've never seen a first person game get leaning quite right since. I have my doubts about the new Thief, but I hope it turns out. Many of the decisions they've already made concern me - recasting Stephen Russell was the wrong move, I don't care if he's too old and fat to do his own mocap - but I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt. Besides, who am I kidding, I'm buying it no matter what because I love Thief.

The Mouse & Keyboard vs. Control Pad debate rages on, and though that Steam Controller video is impressive I'm still not convinced. Thumbs are not capable of the same precision as holding a mouse over a horizontal plane, any more than a WiiMote-like device is. This is more a matter of human kinetics than device design. Since I'm still using my PC in my living room, I find myself wondering whether I'll just gravitate to controllers for traditional M&K games even though I suck with them, or figure out some way to work with both. 

Titanfall's elegance was based in the fact that even though we'd just looked at a sheet with the controls and watched a short video on how to play, everything felt instinctive. The acrobatics came naturally, and they did away with the abrupt crashing stops that ruined the parkour of Mirror's Edge. I hope they release a demo soon, because I'd love to spend a little more time with it. In the interim, control design is something that's not received enough focus or attention. Like AI, developers tend to go with "it's good enough" because fantastic controls aren't the selling point that jiggle physics or fire propagation are.

Life is the misery we endure between disappointments.

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geggis
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October 13, 2013 - 1:12 pm
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I didn't really play much Gears because of my lack of an Xbox but I remember playing it briefly and despising the cover system because it was so sticky. I remember running down a flank and sticking to the wall without wanting to, then the cover adjacent to it. I JUST WANT TO RUN GOD DAMNIT, NOT TAKE COVER.

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Dix
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October 14, 2013 - 9:40 am
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I think that's part of the reason I much preferred Uncharted's take on cover to the one in Gears. I found it less clumsy and also Drake moves with the sort of urgency of someone who is being shot at, for the most part.  Fenix and Cole always just sort of lumber about, I suppose because they're in those ridiculous COG suits, but I feel like that lack of momentum really sapped the excitement from firefights.

As for jumping, I am of two minds: when I think of contextual jumping, I think the only game I've really liked it in was Ocarina of Time, in which it did indeed work really well and I got used to it much faster than I thought I would.  (I was sort of convinced going in that it would drive me insane, even though I saw the consistency with previous Zelda titles, in which jumping was at best a special item Link could acquire.)  Mostly, though, I still feel oddly limited if I can't just jump when I want to in a 3D game, even if there's not much reason to do so.

That said, I do generally revile the "bunny hopping" strategy prevalent in the more Halo-like shooters out there.  That sort of manipulation of the system is a big part of why I really don't play shooters online much.  I still prefer the more arcadey feel of it to the "realism" of Call of Duty, but in practice it's the play styles and mentality that usually chase me away from both.

"Home is not a place.  It is wherever your passion takes you."

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Synonamess Botch
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October 14, 2013 - 10:15 am
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I think I gave the impression that I liked the direction the new Thief was going in.  I'm much more ambivalent about it than that.  The contextual jumping for instance - not sure I'm really on board with that.  In fact, no Stephen Russell is a likely deal breaker for me unfortunately.  We'll see.

I had a feeling I would be wrong about claiming Gears invented the cover shooter.  Given that however, I still don't remember who did it beforehand.  And as Steerpike said, Gears solidified it.  I've said before that Gears was one of those games that changed the genre, in that it expanded the basic, acceptable level of mechanics in a third-person shooter.  Like WASD/freelook or weapon limitations.

I do remember finding the cover system fiddly at times, but I got used to it and learned to love it.  I actually like the lumbering quality of the movement and don't care for floaty-type movement in comparison.  Uncharted may do cover better, but to be fair it is a newer game.

I like discrete button presses to do things (like take cover) because I find it makes some games less ambiguous about what state you’re in.

This right here is what I was originally getting at, but stated much better.  I've been playing some Thief II (I never played it back in the day) and I just hate the controls.  Maybe I've just gotten too rusty with K/M.  I hate the mantling mechanic.  And the weapon and item switching isn't much better.  I guess ultimately I just don't like first-person as much as third-person.

 

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geggis
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October 14, 2013 - 11:39 am
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I think I gave the impression that I liked the direction the new Thief was going in.  I'm much more ambivalent about it than that.  The contextual jumping for instance - not sure I'm really on board with that.  In fact, no Stephen Russell is a likely deal breaker for me unfortunately.  We'll see.

I had a feeling I would be wrong about claiming Gears invented the cover shooter.  Given that however, I still don't remember who did it beforehand.  And as Steerpike said, Gears solidified it.  I've said before that Gears was one of those games that changed the genre, in that it expanded the basic, acceptable level of mechanics in a third-person shooter.  Like WASD/freelook or weapon limitations.

I do remember finding the cover system fiddly at times, but I got used to it and learned to love it.  I actually like the lumbering quality of the movement and don't care for floaty-type movement in comparison.  Uncharted may do cover better, but to be fair it is a newer game.

I like discrete button presses to do things (like take cover) because I find it makes some games less ambiguous about what state you’re in.

This right here is what I was originally getting at, but stated much better.  I've been playing some Thief II (I never played it back in the day) and I just hate the controls.  Maybe I've just gotten too rusty with K/M.  I hate the mantling mechanic.  And the weapon and item switching isn't much better.  I guess ultimately I just don't like first-person as much as third-person.

 

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geggis
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October 14, 2013 - 11:53 am
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Bah. SimplePress has gobbled up two replies now, replacing one entirely with Botch's post above. I mean, I know my writing's not great but geez SimplePress... Who knows where my other post has gone. Perhaps it's in a happy place? Or maybe Flint.

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Steerpike
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October 14, 2013 - 12:44 pm
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Yes, we, ah, we are experiencing technical difficulties. Please do not... do not go away and never return.

I thought you sounded a lot like Botch in that post Gregg... ; )

 

Gears didn't invent the cover shooter, but (in my view) it perfected it. I understand your dislike of the stickableness, but I'd put this down more to only having had a brief time with the game than to a flaw in it. For the way it played, Gears' cover was nearly perfect, sticking only when you contextually wanted to stick. I say your time with it had an impact because after a bit of experience it's second nature to hold or release "A" depending on what you want to do as you move.

As for Thief, I do want it to be good, but I have serious reservations based on what I've heard. It appears that this team has the very best interests of Thief at heart, but that it has also misunderstood some of the core magic of the game. Deadly Shadows, incidentally, also made this mistake - a bit more surprising given it was designed almost entirely by Thief alumni.

I've been impressed with Tomb Raider's controls (I've been impressed with everything about Tomb Raider), now using a 360 controller on PC. I had trouble mapping mouse buttons to something... instinctive... but the shoulder and face buttons work beautifully for contextual presses. And given the versatility of Lara's moves, it could have been control spaghetti. Instead it's pretty elegant. I have a bad habit of forgetting some things if I'm away from a game for more than a week - like how to swap between rope arrows and shoot-in-the-face arrows - and it's not a problem in Tomb Raider.

Life is the misery we endure between disappointments.

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Synonamess Botch
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October 14, 2013 - 6:53 pm
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Agree completely about Tomb Raider's gamepad controls.  Very nicely done.  I can't quite get my head around how K/M would work with third-person, although I must have played some PC games in the past that way.  Further proof that consoles ruined me.

They did tweak the cover mechanics in subsequent Gears games I believe.  You were less likely to perform an action you didn't intend.

 

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Steerpike
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October 14, 2013 - 7:01 pm
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I've had good luck with a mouse and some 3PS games, bad luck with others, and not much rhyme or reason to explain which is which. All three "Sands of Time" Princes of Persia - mouse and keyboard. Unnatural to play any other way. Tomb Raider - despite having many more buttons (my quest for the perfect gaming mouse is complete), I couldn't quite make it work with my brain/thumb connection. No idea why.

You're right, though, Botch. In general third person doesn't work as well with the mouse. I'm not sure if this is a nature thing or a nurture thing. My guess is that moving a mouse to move your head or eyes feels closer to moving a camera, while moving a mouse to steer your whole self feels strange. Left/right contextual issues are also odd. There's no easy parallel to how some games use shoulder and trigger buttons to signify left and right hands. Plus of course you have to allow for left-handed people, who I really feel sorry for. Few ergo mice and very difficult to sit at a strange computer. A lefty friend of mine (and liberal!) actually just trained himself to use his right hand to mouse. I couldn't even begin. I can barely hold a sock in my left hand.

Life is the misery we endure between disappointments.

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Helmut
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October 24, 2013 - 2:00 pm
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I would be remiss if I didn't throw in an old fart reference to an retro game, so here goes. The original System Shock  had a series of areas on the screen where you would put your cursor and right click and hold to activate that motion. Middle of the screen for forward, bottom of the screen for back, top right for rotate right, bottom right for slide right, etc. Couple this with a tiny little slider at the top of the screen for looking up/down and standing in any of 3 heights and you had some serious control overload. It turns out they had a precursor to the wsad control scheme and hot keys for the up/down thing like the page up/page down scheme introduced in Quake which makes it distantly available to players today. Standing at full height to walk around, then having to crouch to hit the little robots with a wrench, or alternatively, walking around crouched and having to stand  to use the wrench on the security cams just turned out to be not that much fun.

I'm going to skip the PC controls, which by and large have remained pretty static almost since 1995 and have only gotten simpler over time in pace with simpler game mechanics. I'm going to jump to tablets and touch input, in keeping with the games I've playes on my 10" Asus tablet. I've played Temple Run with accelerometer support, where you tip the tablet in order to make a running character move left/right to avoid obstacles, and I have to say I don't think this is the right way. While the accelerometer is exceedingly accurate, it somehow feels wrong to be shaking a very expensive device around. I think those sorts of games would be better achieved with the motion sensing adaptors.

I have played a game or two with sound echo and reverb feedback based on touch controls. The effect seems to engage the sensory feedback loops of the body in a way that you don't get with a clicky mouse held at arms length. There's something about laying fingertips on the device that gets into the caress circuitry of the brain, or something.  I think this is very undeveloped, at least in the games I've tried. The tablet supports 10 points of contact, which admittidly could just turn into a confusing mess, but could also be used to create really cool stuff. With a little more haptic fidelity, you could do all sorts of things other than bringing up menu's or launching Angry Birds. 

How about a thought experiment to design the controls in the Engineering deck on a Star Trek-y type ship? At this point I would imagine the technology would be a combination of  touch screen and voice control. How would you build the touch screen displays to make the experience workable? You'd want the idea of confirmation boxes on most controls, but maybe that's done by touching the screen with both hands when you want to launch core, rather than trying to hit the 'ok' prompt when the gravitational anomoly is bouncing you all around.

 

 

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Dix
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October 24, 2013 - 3:52 pm
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With the exception of the Original Series, Trek has used touchscreens for all of its displays since about 1987, with changing modular interfaces, etc.  And obviously voice control.  But beyond that, the design has very much been vague enough to be mostly unexplained (at least on film).  There's usually distinct auditory feedback for hitting any given button, since this also doubles as playing well on TV.  Actually, in a lot of ways, Trek tech hasn't taken too bad a beating from actual technology advancement, as sci-fi goes; TNG also introduced the idea that a lot of work is done on, essentially, tablets networked to the ship's computer.  As for confirmation boxes, especially for critical things, a lot of that seems to be done vocally, along with voice-matching to confirm the speaker's identity.

Anyway, I know you weren't actually asking for a Trekkie answer.  I'm not an HCI expert by any stretch, but I feel like the touch screens whose displays can be changed to suit the needs of the user at the time are probably a logical option.  Audio feedback probably isn't the most practical thing in practice - might get irritating - but at least standard visual "button changes color when pressed" kind of stuff.  I'm not sure what would take the place of confirmation boxes in practice, but obviously you'd want them.  The two hands idea isn't bad.

"Home is not a place.  It is wherever your passion takes you."

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Helmut
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October 24, 2013 - 10:48 pm
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That's why I like the idea of thinking about the Star Trek controls. You're led to believe there's some slick, slidy, gorgeously retro orange-yellow-brown control scheme. but never presented with concrete instances. I'd think button style interfaces are poor, depending on how frequently you'd expect to be thrown around, and potentially multi-touch the panel.

 

Looking around  a bit, it's clear that this question is a how would we make the controls now, for our idea of the future, and not how they'd do things in the future.  Looking at this site, which as a lot of images from TNG, it's clear how much our idea of slick UI has changed since 1993.

From this interview: ,http://en.memory-alpha.org/wik.....ms/Answers

 

This question/answer:

The original series had very tactile interfaces for the controls - utilizing levers, knobs, and buttons at each station on the ship. Later series and movies evolved into a more modern "touchscreen" sort of interface. Can you maintain that feel of the original series controls and still present those devices as "futuristic" now that our culture has taken great strides towards more modern touchscreen devices? Joshg

 

We had the weird challenge of having to take a 43 year old vision of the future and make it a current vision of the future. I wanted the movie to feel as tactile and tangible and as real as possible, but given what our computer interfaces are like now, its preposterous to assume that hundreds of years from now there won't be some version of holographic screens and things that seem almost ubiquitous now in science fiction. So I try to never let that kind of stuff be the star of the movie or overtake the story. We also had to deal with the fact that we started the movie in one ship and later in the film go over to the Enterprise, which needed to be the next generation of ship. I tried to make the first one more submarine-like, clunky, darker, metallic, and then have the Enterprise feel much more bright and shiny and brand spanking new.

 

 

 

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Synonamess Botch
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October 25, 2013 - 10:20 am
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I remember that original System Shock interface well.  It was one of the reasons, I think, that the game wasn't successful.  It straddled that evolutionary line when first person control schemes were finding their way.  I still maintain it's a better game than System Shock 2, but it's hard to go back to.  Ultima Underworld had a similar control method.  You could actually click arrow buttons on the screen to move around, since the actual viewing area took up less than half the screen.  It was slower paced, being an RPG, so wasn't as much of an issue.  What a magical game that was.

 

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Steerpike
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October 26, 2013 - 10:23 pm
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It's funny thinking about Star Trek. If I recall my TNG correctly, the touchscreen consoles used a lot of sliders - two fingertips down, two across, that kind of thing. A starry precursor to multitouch. Though thinking about it now, I remember a fair amount of tapping as well - though almost no typing. I always pictured using their consoles as similar to the talked-about-but-I-don't-think-released gel touch interfaces, where a tactile level was added in the form of goo-filled bumps that can materialize at certain controls and give it a push feel. 

What amazes me most about UI design for games is how much of it is unpredictable, and how much would be so difficult to guess at and optimize. Changing the response delay between action and reaction by just a millisecond can make huge differences.

On average most controls are "good enough." You don't see much in realm of System Shock any more, where nobody had standardized controls so they did the best they could with what they were able to come up with. Techncially I'd say System Shock's controls were bad, but not in the sense of inept or clumsy. They just hadn't worked out a more elegant way to do it yet. These days, unfamiliarity or deviation from the norm are equated with being bad, but it's been a long time since I played a commercial game in which the controls were flat out bad, as in they didn't work or they were moronic. I've played lazy ones, though. As for exceptional... I remember thinking that The Last of Us did a great job with the nuances of how it handled the D-pad, though I'm damned if I can remember why. But arguably the rarest thing is to find a game for which the controls are so well-done that you actually notice it. "Fine" is the bog-standard.

The future will be weird. I can't think of better solutions than we have now, but then, I couldn't think why people would want e-Readers so don't look to me for prognostication. Wearables and voice seem fundamentally issue-laden. Movement seems tiring. Eye tracking has potential but that'll take some getting used to. The ones that read your thoughts just freak me out.

The main thing we can all agree (now) that Star Trek obviously got wrong? Grease. There'd be finger slime all over those big touchscreens, and you never saw anyone wiping them down.

Life is the misery we endure between disappointments.

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Dix
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October 28, 2013 - 9:00 am
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They never had to wipe those consoles down because they'd just explode and need to get replaced anyway.  Duh.

Or they just beamed away all the grease when no one was looking.

"Home is not a place.  It is wherever your passion takes you."

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Helmut
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October 29, 2013 - 11:08 am
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The one Star Trek image I found on that site had tiny little arrows on the side of the display for scrolling through reams of text, which is really pretty silly in light of the notion of flinging, which, among other gestures, would be pretty  hard to imagine before touch screens were  invented.  Those large surfaces in movies like The Minority Report do look like they'd be tiring. A person would get carpal tunnel flinging images all day.

I like the notion of the holographic device interface though. You could have the physical interface stations near the equipment they were meant to manage, and a hologram of the lever, switch, button or handle that you would activate through a Kinect type motion sensor. No grease!  Plus, a positive visual feedback on the control activation state. 

I think that System Shock interface was along the spectrum between Doom/Doom2, which used the mouse scrolling directly to move without any notion of up/down or freeview, and Quake, which was the same with page up/page down idea to look up/down. I think. Memory fades. In retrospect, when I play Shock now, I can use the movement keys to go ahead/back in conjunction with the mouse to strafe at the same time, which gives a neat movement dynamic. You also could use the mouse to move forward at any speed from normal walk to ultra slow, which seemed to offer a real sense of stealth.

My Dark Souls single player sensibilities are protected by a +10 GfWL Firewall of Ineptitude

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Steerpike
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October 29, 2013 - 11:33 am
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I have an anecdote!

Being a bit of a set-in-ways sort of person, I hung on to my own (obscure) keyboard-only control scheme for shooters until 1998. I disliked the idea of using the mouse for shooters. Nay, I staunchly opposed the mouse in shooters!

Then... Unreal.

I remember the day. I remember the moment in the game (first Stone Titan) that the one voice in my head said to the other voice, "Matt... you need a mouse. You can't react fast enough."

What followed was a multi-week comedy of errors as I got used to what was, to me, the outlandishly overdone precision of a mouse. Looking up without holding a key? Glancing up? I was like an otter on roller skates. I had to basically teach myself how to play games again. Of course I never looked back once I got the hang of it, but that was the last major control shift. Touch has been pretty huge, but it still hasn't settled into a clear How It Works. Certainly before the arrival of the mouse I never would have thought that a device like that could deliver the precision it does, and once again I can't really picture what might trump it. Maybe we've come as far as we can (or should) come.

That's right, I'm talking to you, Kinect.

Life is the misery we endure between disappointments.

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