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Demon's Souls
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xtal
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February 14, 2012 - 9:37 pm
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Yep, I just kept dodging and nailing her with soul arrow. Wasn't too hard at all; I was just totally unprepared that first time. I'm now in the church with the foreboding piano music and "Fool's Idol." I've picked off a few of her minions and she doesn't seem too bothered.

Hmm... let's see how this plays out.

If being wrong's a crime I'm serving forever

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Steerpike
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February 14, 2012 - 10:26 pm
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xtal, there is no shame in waiting for your sweet-smelling ring to heal you up. In fact, there is no shame in anything you do in Demon's Souls to improve your chances. Wikis, cheats, Fragrant Rings, geometry glitches, you name it. Be proud, my man.

The Fool's Idol is a trick boss; be careful.

Life is the misery we endure between disappointments.

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geggis
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February 15, 2012 - 9:21 am
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Steerpike speaks the truth, I for one made the most of a geometry glitch during a boss battle (retrospectively it was the hardest boss in the game for me). Demon's Souls will do anything and everything it can to kill you, remember to do the same to its denizens. 😉

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xtal
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February 15, 2012 - 9:32 am
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Yeah I've got no mercy for them. I picked off the Armor Spider from a distance with spells and barely let him touch me; I think his webs and exploding balls of fire got me once, but didn't kill me.

Fool's Idol wasn't that tough, just a bit tricky as to where to position myself. She kept cloning herself and what I'd do was take aim at one of the versions of her, fire a quick shot and if the bottom health bar didn't go down I'd just roll back behind a pillar. After doing this for a few minutes I noticed that the real Fool's Idol didn't have a health bar above her head. Aha! Very clever, Demon's Souls... very clever. Runes kept appearing on the floor but not knowing what something does is my cue to stay the hell away from it.

After being carried away by some very frightening gargoyles and thinking that I'd somehow fucked up I found the next archstone, collected my reward and got back to the Nexus. Traded her Doll Demon's Soul for a nice little spell called Soul Ray. This Freke fellow is a much better magic teacher than his follower/apprentice guy. The description of this spell said it pierced multiple enemies, so naturally wanting to discover how true this was, I took a trip to what was formerly the dragon-guarded bridge in 1-1 where many fools stand in a line. Soul Ray cuts down about 5 or 6 in one shot. Also takes out Blue Eyed Knights in 1 hit, and Red Eyed Knights in 2, as long as their shield isn't up. Amazing.

With 1-1, 2-1, and 3-1 down I'm not sure if I should go to the Shrine of Storms or do a bit more item farming. I think I'm going to spend some more time in Stonefang to collect ores. I got a lot of blades in Latria I'd like to upgrade. Baby's Nail sounds particularly evil.

ALSO: I got a Black Eye Stone from that ... thing outside the church. I read up on the wiki and it said you get one from the first black phantom you defeat. Well, NPC black phantom. I don't know if I'd ever want my body back so badly as to invade someone else's world to kill them; I think I'd much rather help them as a blue phantom ... but maybe my attitude will change after I get defiled a few times in the Valley of Defilement.

We shall see!

Edit: I just remembered I wanted to ask something! There was this guy up above the floor in the church.. I paid him a visit before I fought the boss, because naturally I scour every corner before going through fog gates. Anyway, there were about four or five messages as I approached this guy that said "beware of liar," "attack," etc. so after he said he would be a good little ... whatever he is, I ruthlessly murdered him. Someone please tell me he wasn't some named NPC who only at the end of the game sells an item called The Item You Need To Finish Demon's Souls, Also Known As The "Muwuhuhwahahahahaha" Key.

There were some golden glowing floaty spheres hovering around him ... once I stabbed his face they faded away. Hope they weren't important! I'm generally being trusting of messages left by others, unless it's at the edge of a cliff and says there's treasure beyond.

If being wrong's a crime I'm serving forever

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geggis
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February 15, 2012 - 10:24 am
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...but not knowing what something does is my cue to stay the hell away from it.

Quoted for truth!

I seem to recall that dude in the church, but I'm not sure whether I killed him or left him be. I think he might have something to do with this (from the wiki):

  1. Be wary of the Liar. This Dregling is the one you would have been warned about if you went directly to the boss. Despite his pleas of not interfering, he fuels the spell that revives the Fool's Idol. Kill him to beat the boss. Grab the Special Key while you are here. Feel free to backtrack to point 17 to release Sage Freke now.
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Synonamess Botch
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February 15, 2012 - 12:14 pm
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Wow I had forgotten this thread was still going.  You're awesome Xtal!  That guy you killed above the church is indeed what geggis says he is.  If you don't kill him beforehand, he'll resurrect the Fool's Idol indefinitely.  The game gives you clues to that effect in the church.  So you should be guilt-free.  In general I've found that the overwhelming majority of messages are helpful, with a small fraction (<5%) intentionally mischievous.  But those are usually pretty transparent.

I was the one who compared DS to Diablo.  I was wondering if it was just me.  Very similar tone.

I'm kind of surprised that you were invaded at such a (relatively) low level, although now that I think about it, it happened to me too.  It's good to know that people are still playing online.  I wonder if Atlus will extend its online support even more now.

Like you, I couldn't resist experimenting with different builds.  I ended up finishing the game with a strength-based melee build, although I got fairly far with a Royalty character.  I liked being able to deal the pain up close.  That early soul arrow does feel like cheating, but as others said, there's no such thing as cheating in Demon's Souls.  It's simply called taking every advantage. 🙂

geggis also gave excellent advice on upgrade stones.  I think it's crucial to gain understanding from the wiki on what exactly each type does since there's not a great deal of room for experimentation (although farming can be a fun meta-game), and then use the ones that match your strengths.  It can also be a good idea to start with a weapon that's already partially upgraded to begin with (like the Crescent Falchion which you can find in 4-1 guarded by a very tough opponent).

That thing with the crossbow outside the church was indeed a black phantom (always distinguishable by the red hue).  A thing always to be respected and treated with extreme caution and prejudice.  That particular one was wearing a Thief's Ring, hence the surprise attack.

Really looking forward to more updates!

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Steerpike
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February 15, 2012 - 1:45 pm
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Good work, xtal, you're coming right along. Soul Ray is a great spell, growing ever deadlier as you improve your magic-related stats. Homing Soulmass (it might just be called "Soulmass" in Demon's) is another great tool for the wizard on the go. I played my game as a Temple Knight, so I was more into miracles than spells, but truth be told I played largely as a cross between strength-based melee and very high archery. This build was based in part on my heavy farming of the Shrine of Storms.

Life is the misery we endure between disappointments.

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xtal
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February 15, 2012 - 4:25 pm
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Botch, I'm surprised too, but I think Dark Souls must have reinvigorated Demon's as well: I see white phantoms all the time, and I have come to assume that those are people playing online at the same time as I am.

In a lot of places they actually keep me positive; in a way you almost don't feel so alone. Reiterating what you've all said, this game really isn't the insanely difficult torture fest that many made it out to be, it's just the harsh penalty for failure isn't something many games present you with.

When I touch the many bloodstains over the world (and there are many!) most of the time it's just sheer recklessness: I see countless people fall off cliffs-- and I can tell when it's not intentional suicide--, people flailing their swords this way and that, or people just running around corners and being caught off guard by mind flayers (those guys are creepy!). I don't often see a death where the person is walking carefully, shield raised.

Having said that, I've only tackled the first 3 areas of the first 3 worlds, but I'm still proud of myself, dammit!

Okay, question: who named it the Prison of Hope? That's the prison of HOPE??? What on earth does the Prison of Despair look like?!

Things I've noticed: I hope my Royalty playthrough isn't setting me up for failure later on. I mean, my magic is strong and I've earned my way to soul level 30, I don't doubt that, but I just fear some 90 degree learning slope that will kick my pampered ass. I think my Royal has died two, possibly three times. One of those from PvP too. I went back to my Thief, planning to do a quick trip through 1-1 for some grass, and wow, it kicked my butt. Even though knowing the layout is half the battle, maybe even three quarters of the battle, you can't take what you know for granted. I died twice in 1-1 and lost several thousand souls! Mostly, no, entirely due to carelessness. Soul level 19, still easily got my ass handed to me there. I think the Thief class should be left to more advanced players. And Gregg.

If being wrong's a crime I'm serving forever

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Synonamess Botch
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February 15, 2012 - 6:56 pm
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Xtal my online experience has mirrored yours pretty closely.  Those white phantoms are indeed other real people (very cool IMO as well).  The vast majority of deaths I witnessed (not including intentional ones) were due to simple carelessness also.  My experience led me to always leave some stamina in the gauge for the inevitable counter-attack.

I don't think your Royal is setting you up for difficulties down the line, but I think it is crucial to remember that an effective magic user in DS is not like those in other fantasy RPGs.  No matter what you are, you have to be at least somewhat of a jack-of-all-trades, simply because you're alone.  No matter what your build, Endurance is very important.  You could argue that Vitality is too, but probably less so, as long as you're able to deal from a distance quickly and overwhelmingly.  It's why they tied equip and item weight to those attributes, IMHO.  A brilliant system.  I agree that a Thief type is a more advanced build, in the sense that it requires more skillful technique.

"Having said that, I’ve only tackled the first 3 areas of the first 3 worlds, but I’m still proud of myself, dammit!

Amen!

Okay, question: who named it the Prison of Hope? That’s the prison of HOPE??? What on earth does the Prison of Despair look like?!"

Ha ha!  Oh bitter irony!

geggis, how do you get those cool quote boxes?

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Steerpike
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February 15, 2012 - 9:09 pm
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Botch, m'friend, use the block quote button in the Reply/New Post window's toolbar - it looks like a big double quote. Highlight the text you'd like to format and click away. If you are not seeing the toolbar, or if you have any other problems, then I am displeased and you must tell me immediately. We're participating in a beta of this forum software, so any issues, let me know!

Xtal, in my experience there's no way to set yourself up for failure, at least in the sense that it's perfectly possible to succeed with any character class. Even if you throw tons of points into stats that don't suit your initial build, you'll probably be okay (if somewhat slowed down). And, as Botch says, no matter what you're "playing," you'll wind up a bit of everything, with a concentration on a few skills. Those who do Souls games speedruns tend to focus on magic to the exclusion of all else, but speedruns are not about having a good time.

I'd also add that Dexterity is a very useful thing to have a lot of - it reduces falling damage (drastically, at high levels), and if you do any archery, this is the stat that brings the pain unto your foes.

Life is the misery we endure between disappointments.

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xtal
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February 15, 2012 - 11:12 pm
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Duly noted. I have mostly ignored Dexterity (it is 13 I believe). Probably because I've actually found no arrows, nor a bow. I have a crossbow and plenty of bolts but trying it for the first time today I learned that there is no bloody aiming. What the what? It must be for close quarters badassery. Something I am not going to leave to the chance of my crossbow aiming skills!

I have also ignored Strength entirely, leaving it at its base value since it seems to present no value to a lightly armored spellsword. I've left Luck alone; drops seem to be fine. Okay, I did just go through 2-1 again to find Sharpstone and got not a single drop from anything that wasn't a crystal lizard (I killed two of them today!) so maybe if affects me, who knows. Most of the items are useless crap anyway, which I really wish I could sell for a few measly souls rather than fill up kind Thomas' boxes with.

I'm keeping Vitality and Endurance about par, Intelligence a bit higher, and Magic I'm pumping way up. I am now resorting quite a bit to this wikidot site, it is very good. I am reading some builds of magic users; they seem to support what I've done so far, and even offer suggestions on where to cap particular stats, so that's nice and helpful.

Oh, also in Stonefang today, I ran backwards through 2-1 (as in I took the elevator shortcut in, and made a circle back to the starting point). That left me with some unexpected enemy positions, and of all things a goddamned dog got a killing blow on me. I should have had my health up a bit more but again, I was overconfident and keen on saving grass; I took a fat man down with a few Soul Rays, sliced up a few of his Pickaxe-wielding friends with my Rapier+4 but yes, then a dog bit me. And I died. Goodbye body. I've got to say, although it's a bit of a letdown when you first die I really prefer being in soul form. Okay, I hate the halved health, because I really like wearing the Thief's Ring and the Fragrant Ring, so having to use the Cling Ring annoys me, but having no footsteps, making no sounds at all, it's great. And I think it adds to my stealthiness. Being a soul with the Thief's Ring makes me pretty sneaky. And I do like being sneaky. It beats wearing a sign that says "Hello, I'm Quite the Blunderer, Have at Me, Why Don't You?"

I digress.

A single run of 2-1 did still net me about 9,000 souls (silver bracelets for 10% more souls is quite nice when you take down the big foes), so I'm going to try it a few more times-- and hope for better luck with the ores dropping-- before I move to 2-2.

You're right, Steerpike: it indeed calls to you. But as I mentioned in our Steam chat, the Mrs.' wanted to do some television watching, and, regrettably, it would be a bit stuffy in our 550 sq ft to have a second one. So it's a night off for me 🙂

If being wrong's a crime I'm serving forever

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Steerpike
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February 16, 2012 - 12:21 am
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Crossbows are nice, but a bow and arrow does have aiming (double left shoulder for sniper mode, crucial against the mantas in the Shrine of Storms). It'll save your Canadian Bacon. I wish I could tell you precisely where to find one... I'm not sure if my first bow was a purchase or what. They're around.

It sucks that people only have two fingers in the Souls games. In Dark Souls right now I desperately need the Orange Charred Ring, the Small Being's Ring, the Ring of Favor & Protection, and the Cloranthy Ring equipped, but... two fingers. As Botch suggested earlier, you can set aside your Fragrant Ring in favor of the Crescent Falchion should you visit the Shrine of Storms and kill the Red Eye protecting it. Also in that area is the Adjudicator's Shield, which constantly regenerates your magic. A delicious combination!

You're noble to give up the TV, and good. I applaud you. As we discussed, living alone as I do this is not a problem, but I'm certain my home smells worse than yours. Tradeoff.

Life is the misery we endure between disappointments.

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Pokey
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February 16, 2012 - 1:25 am
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I don't believe I ever used the crossbow. I suggest you try 1-2 to find some nice items, You should find that the Tower Knight is not a hard fight for your character.

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geggis
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When I touch the many bloodstains over the world (and there are many!) most of the time it’s just sheer recklessness: I see countless people fall off cliffs– and I can tell when it’s not intentional suicide–, people flailing their swords this way and that, or people just running around corners and being caught off guard by mind flayers (those guys are creepy!). I don’t often see a death where the person is walking carefully, shield raised.

Now you mention it, I also saw a lot of this. The bloodstains thing is a real masterstroke if you think about it: at the press of a button you can see how another player died without seeing exactly what it was that killed them (unless they fell to their deaths!). More often than not it's just a simple reminder that carelessness will be punished (as evidenced above, and which is arguably the greatest advice Demon's Souls can give you) but sometimes it'll give you just enough of a heads up to be extra careful. It's a hint-system (on top of the risky messaging system) that's fueled by other player's failures. Genius!

I think you target enemies with the crossbow using the normal targeting system so they naturally have a shorter range than bows.

I focused my stats on Luck (for drops and plague resistance -- can't say I noticed the benefit), Dexterity (I could fall ridiculously far by the end of the game), Vitality (for HP!) and Endurance (for stamina, absolutely vital for my evasive thief/assassin). I beefed my Strength up to use certain weapons but left it at about 24 I think (for the White Bow). I flirted with magic early on but stopped using it entirely after that, I haven't a clue what a miracle looks or sounds like! I couldn't use most armour in the game either so by the end I was still largely kitted out in black leather ie. the starting armour for the thief. Simply put: being a thief is tough because it gives you fewer options, at least for a single game. In Dark Souls I think I'll be going more magic-based but the combat does seem a lot better so... nyeah, decisions decisions.

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Steerpike
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February 16, 2012 - 9:33 am
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In Dark Souls I think I’ll be going more magic-based but the combat does seem a lot better so… nyeah, decisions decisions.

You pose an interesting dilemma, there, Gregg. I restarted my Dark Souls game a few times to reacquaint with the controls. They've added a couple new moves - a kick, a leaping attack, and a dropping attack. Overall the combat is generally similar to Demon's Souls, though Dark is a little more forgiving when it comes to large weapons in small spaces. Your weapons and armor also degrade far slower, so keeping all equipment in tiptop shape isn't as much of an expense.

One significant difference is the magic system - no more magic points. Instead you can cast a spell X times, but have to camp in order to replenish your pool. Thus magic use is pretty hard early in the game, since you have only a small repertoire of spells to work with. The Sorcerer starts with 30 Soul Arrows, for example. Pyromancers tend to do more damage but have fewer casts available. Later in the game you have several offensive spells to choose from so obviously it's easier then.

I've been considering the possibility of playing through as an archer - 90% ranged combat with a thieflike build up close. Basically I'm trying to figure out if it'd be possible, given that early on, the foes you defeat will drop fewer souls than the cost of the arrows required to kill them.

The presence of the Kingseeker makes a big difference economically. It is possible to "bank" souls in objects now - for some items, he'll give you the same number of souls as you paid to buy them. This makes it realistic to have up to about 40,000 souls in safe keeping. And if you make heavy use of his desire to eat everything he sees, random loot will really enrich you over time.

Life is the misery we endure between disappointments.

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xtal
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February 16, 2012 - 10:43 am
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Is it possible to use spells against these manta things? Arrows seem very sparse, and I like spending my souls on leveling up! I guess it's that arrows can work from a greater distance, right? Oh the decisions there are to be made.

So Steerpike, can you explain exactly what this dog-thing guy does for you in Dark Souls? He... eats your items and gives you other random items? Or he eats your souls and gives you loot? Or... you give him rubbish and he turns it into souls? I clearly haven't followed what you detailed a few diaries ago.

If being wrong's a crime I'm serving forever

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Steerpike
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February 16, 2012 - 11:27 am
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It is possible to use spells against the mantas, but as you surmise, arrows are preferable because they go farther and you don't have to target your foe. You'll find a merchant in the Shrine - Graverobber Blige is his name - who sells an assortment of arrows. But yeah, it's an investment. The Shrine will help you get all the souls you need. You can farm that place for a lot once you get used to it.

 

in Dark Souls, Kingseeker Frampt turns up at Firelink Shrine once you've rung both Bells. He has some quests for you, and can give you information on some of the stuff that's going on. Also in his dialog menu is "Feed Item." He'll trade souls for practically anything in your inventory. The exchange rate isn't stellar... he'll eat a sword for maybe 100 souls, for example. You can also feed him Titanite (the Dark Souls equivalent of upgrade stones), either for souls or for him to just crunch up and give back - a Titanite Slab would become four Titanite Shards or whatever.

The way it's set up, it's impractical to try and make a massive profit by feeding the Kingseeker, but it does make loot collection a little more worthwhile. One of the most important things about this guy is that there's at least one object - a dung pie, don't think about it - that costs 200 souls to buy and that he'll give you 200 souls to eat. Gross, but it allows you to bank souls. 99 dung pies in your inventory, plus another 99 in your Bottomless Box, means that should the worst happen you still have a savings account of 40,000 souls.

Life is the misery we endure between disappointments.

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Synonamess Botch
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February 16, 2012 - 12:43 pm
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I have also ignored Strength entirely, leaving it at its base value since it seems to present no value to a lightly armored spellsword. I’ve left Luck alone

I didn't mean to imply that you should bump every attribute.  The one exception to ignoring Strength is if there's a particular piece of equipment you'd like to wear as geggis mentioned (I'm thinking specifically of the Purple Flame Shield here).  A very good shield but by no means a necessity.  I never messed with Luck either.  It's a fascinating balance of focused stat increases for what you're really good at and balanced distribution for your so-called backup abilities.

I think you can use spells against the Mantas, but it's very difficult.  Maybe the guided Soul Arrow (forget the name) works well?

I'd agree with Steerpike about bow usage.  It's a good backup but does cost souls to maintain your quiver.  Once you meet a certain guy you can buy heavy arrows.  More expensive, but better damage.  Bow > Crossbow.  You can find a really good one in 4-1, along with some other really good stuff as others mentioned.  Be warned about the Falchion.  It's not a red-eye guarding it, but rather someone who would take a red-eye behind the woodshed.  Same for the Adjudicator's Shield (but for that one if you pay attention you can win it easily).

Man I could talk about this game all day.  And hearing about the changes in Dark Souls is fascinating as well, especially the removal of magic points.

Rule #2: Double-tap

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Pokey
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February 16, 2012 - 2:21 pm
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I used only soul arrow or ray to bring down the mantas. It works well in the early part of 4-1. Later on, not so well. I never could bring any down with the bow. They were too hard to target.

I put most of my points into endurance, magic and strength enough to use weapons. I didn't increase dexterity much and found that I could survive the jumps in 2-2 with no problem. I put only 1 point into luck.

It is possible to get the crescent falchion without fighting the BP, either with the bow or a little trickery. There is a pretty good bow in 1-2. It is all I used and upgraded till I could get the lava bow. I loved the lava bow.

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xtal
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I think I'll take some time Saturday morning to do some serious tackling of 1-2, 2-2 and 4-1. Thanks for the encouragement and tips, everyone!

If being wrong's a crime I'm serving forever

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