“No,” is my guess.
I’m as guilty as the next fan of speculating unfairly about things, though I’ve tried – hard – to withhold judgment on Eidos Montreal’s upcoming Thief. It hasn’t been easy, and I haven’t been wholly successful. But I remind myself that this studio also gave us the workmanlike but excellent Deus Ex: Human Revolution, and I feel a little better. “Teams” and “studios” aren’t the same thing, though, and so far there’s been little evidence that the development team behind Thief understands the franchise they’re working with to the degree that the Deus Ex folks understood theirs.
It’s this latest story trailer that made me think it was time to put in my totally unsolicited and almost surely unwelcome two cents.
That narrator? The one who implies that you know him? You know him. If you played The Dark Project or The Metal Age, that is; the two Thief games that created the canon and delivered on it most effectively.
It’s Basso the Boxman.
Not exactly a “major” character, to be sure. He’s a friend of Garrett’s, to the extent that Garrett has friends. Sort of an all-around loser. Having been imprisoned by the Hammers, he’s a secondary objective in The Dark Project’s “Cragscleft Prison” mission: it might be nice to bust him out, Garrett thinks, since he has to visit the prison anyway and since he’s been hoping to make sexytimes with Basso’s sister. Always easier to make sexytimes when you’ve freed someone’s brother from prison (though if I recall correctly, you accomplish this by hauling his unconscious body to an underground river and dumping it in, leaving it to float to freedom on its own). In The Metal Age, Basso is sort of the focus of the first mission – he’s fallen in love with the laundry girl in some rich lady’s employ and needs Garrett to help spirit her out of indentured servitude and into his waiting arms.
Basso the Boxman has a purpose in the Thief games: he exists to demonstrate that Garrett does have a social circle, that the master thief is a human being and will go out of his way for people he cares about, that he’ll appear to do it grudgingly but really he doesn’t mind at all. I always found this to be an important part of Thief’s mythology.
So now it looks like Basso has moved up a little, which seems to happen with criminals of his nature. They’re never the best and hardly the brightest, but they cultivate friends and find themselves abruptly in positions of power. Sometimes they remember where they came from and sometimes they don’t. From this trailer, it sounds like Basso hasn’t forgotten his roots. That’s not the problem.
The problem is that using the name of a secondary character from the original franchise doesn’t make this reboot a loyal follow-on. And though I really do try not to pile on with the haters who assume the worst based on little information, looking at a trailer like this concerns me. This team has gone out of its way to insist that they’re huge fans of Thief, that their goal is to update the series while remaining true to its roots. How, exactly, can that be?
They only recently abandoned the plan to have Garrett earn experience and level up, citing fan opposition even as they sounded utterly bewildered by the outcry. XP leveling is fine in concept, of course, but again it sort of flies in the face of claims that they know and love the Thief milieu. Garrett is a master thief. If this isn’t an origin story, and it isn’t, he’s already the best thief in the world. That’s kind of the point of the franchise, which – I hasten to add – is called Thief.
You probably have to be a Thief disciple to really see where the developers appear to have gone wrong, but for those people this video makes it remarkably self-evident. Whoever made the trailer (if not the game, who knows) clearly understands the basics of the City without understanding its nuance. They clearly understand that Thief had some new vocab words without understanding how they’re used. They clearly understand the cropped animatic style of the original cutscenes, but in emulating it (badly) fail to understand why it worked. Based on the trailer it’s clear that either the team is employing the foundation of the Thief universe but reinventing as it sees fit, or doesn’t really “get” the universe of Thief at all.
Now here’s the thing. If Eidos Montreal chooses to reinvent or reimagine Thief for this fourth installment, so be it. They own it. There are a lot of reasons they might want or need to do that, and the desires of loyalist fans – the same fans so small in number that the original Thief trilogy was hardly a sales recordsetter – need not heavily influence them. What they can’t do is live comfortably in both worlds. If this is a reboot of Thief, reboot Thief. If this is a canon-loyal sequel to an existing universe, make it a canon-loyal sequel to an existing universe.
I don’t agree with much of the fan bile I’ve seen. I don’t care that Garrett wears eyeliner now. First, I think it’s more to darken the skin around his eyes than it is a fashion statement (ninjas and special forces do the same thing); second, I don’t care that Garrett wears eyeliner now. Dude’s fashion sense never had anything to do with anything.
I do care that they’ve replaced Stephen Russell as Garrett’s voice. I do care that they’ve added Quick Time Events to deal with certain situations. I do care that they’ve built it from the ground up to allow a balls-out approach to each mission (I don’t care that violence is an option. This is a common and irritating misconception among Thief faithful. Garrett was always willing to kill, and always good at it. If he avoided violence it was because he saw such obvious markers as unworthy of the ghost he is, not because he’s on bad terms with Death. I’ve never known a character on better terms with Death than Garrett).
As a franchise, Thief has stumbled many times. It could be argued (by me) that the only really priceless game in the series was The Dark Project. Its immediate sequel The Metal Age didn’t have… didn’t have something that the first one did; the third one, Deadly Shadows, felt like a Thief game, and played like a Thief game, but somehow wasn’t a Thief game at all. In the long run, I suspect that’s what this fourth installment will amount to as well.
I love that the developers paid enough attention to Thief mythology that Basso the freaking Boxman is not just a character, but a character who’s undergone a believable transformation. I hate that they’re using such out-of-hat pulls to imply their love of a franchise even when all other evidence points to a significant and ill-advised reimagining. I hate that the trailer either misuses the word Taffer or the voice talent was not directed correctly in its use.
Actually what really makes me sad is that they’ve already ignored the two major sequel setups that appeared at the end of Deadly Shadows – what the City actually is (a great reveal in an otherwise forgettable climax, and a subtle enough one that plenty of people never got it and still don’t), and Garrett’s epilogue. Randy Smith, no fool, realized it was time to end Garrett’s story and did so well, simultaneously introducing a character who was clearly supposed to be the protagonist of any “next” Thief game. I would have liked to learn more about that little girl and her adventures. She was clearly something special – after all, it is no easy thing to see a Keeper when he does not wish to be seen.
For me, it’s been so long since a Thief game, and so much has changed since, that I’m not wildly fussed about this. I’ll buy the game unless the reviews are hideous, and with luck I’ll enjoy it. I’d certainly rather it be good than bad, faithful than un-. But I also tend to believe that Thief belongs in another time, and that time is past. Ironically, the tagline for this installment is What’s yours is mine. Pretty good, I like it. But cynically, isn’t it more a commentary on this game’s relationship to the Thief of old than it is on what Garrett does with other people’s things?
Commiserate with Steerpike about the absence of Stupid Guard via email.
I missed Thief, having only tried to bully an XP PC into playing the first rather late, and then finding it unsatisfying, perhaps because of performance problems, perhaps because I’d played too many more modern stealth games. But this sounds like the way I feel about a lot of stuff lately. I find it almost ironic that this opinion piece follows hot on the heels of my Arkham Origins review, at which I leveled similar accusations.
There’s definitely a sense, now, with reboots and sequels and things in the hands of a new creative team – and this is not just games – that using the bits of the old stuff can excuse, in the eyes of the fans, being something quite else. I feel very strongly about this practice in particular in relation to Star Trek Into Darkness, which felt, to me, about as far from a Star Trek film as one could get, and as a fan the fan servicey bits just soured the experience more. Yes, we adore that moment in Star Trek II where Kirk bellows Khan’s name to the heavens (even though he’s underground). That’s why we mock it so much. But having Spock bellow it isn’t clever, it’s stupid and pandering.
What were we talking about again?
I’m really not sure what to think of this new Thief. Playing through a bit of Metal Age recently, I know that I dislike the controls and wouldn’t mind something more up to today’s standards. But by that I do not mean QTEs. I do agree with you about Garrett’s lethality, or peoples misconceptions about his lack thereof. The thing is that being lethal should be much less interesting.
Deadly Shadows did have bits that brought the original to mind, even if the writing was n’t quite up to par. Third-person did not bother me a bit and I actually preferred it. What did bother me most was that the so-called open world bits were pretty much broken. And no, I don’t get what the City really is. Or maybe I just forgot.
Back to Metal Age. I’m playing the shipping yard mission and finding it…boring. And with that I’m trying hard to remember what I loved about Thief in the first place. I do remember getting frustrated (or was it terrified?) with the original and putting it down for a long time before finally finishing it. That’s not really helping my ambivalence about this new game.
I will likely skip it, at least initially. Or at least until the lack of Stephen Russell ceases to matter. Actually that might never happen.
I’m sure this is going to be a total disappointment but I’ve accepted Arkane as the rightful successor to Looking Glass so I’ll be ok if the game is mediocre, as long as I get Dishonored 2 sometime soon.
As per usual we are of like mind. I have remained silent on Thief Reloaded because I think Thief is done and a revival will have problems. Can we put up with a heavy reliance on quickload? A mainstream budget game with lots of waiting- could that possibly be a financial success? I didn’t want a new Thief and assumed any new version would undoubtedly offend me. Maybe I am wrong but I can’t see a modern Thief working. There’s no point in fan service of you’re not going to provide fan service, you know.
The City is the Last Glyph. The missing symbol with power over all the others. Specifically, the layout of its streets; which explains why the Glyph was never found even though the Keepers looked in every place it could realistically have been. The reveal is so sudden and so brief (a one-second flash of light during Deadly Shadows’ final cutscene) that it’s actually weirder to see it than miss it. I always loved it because the City – what it is, where it is, why it is – was really the great mystery of Thief. Turns out these questions are pointless because they’re questions to be asked of a city, and the City is only a city obliquely. It was always something else. The City isn’t symbolic, it IS a symbol. Like, literally.
The Metal Age had moments of towering brilliance (I’m looking at you, Thieves Highway), but I always felt they were mixed in with a bag of generally-good-but-nothing-special. The one you mention, Botch, I remember it well. It was the demo. I guess I liked it, but it set the stage for these bogglingly huge mission areas that took hours to complete and left you feeling completely overwhelmed. I didn’t want ten minute missions, but I felt rootless in much of The Metal Age because everything was so BIG.
I really do hope the new Thief is awesome, but I don’t think that’s possible. Even if I had more confidence in the team, the fact is they’d be pulled in too many directions regardless. We saw some of this with Deadly Shadows. I remember Randy being so exasperated at the Game Developers Conference that year – Eidos had changed the title (it was originally called The Dark Age), insisted that it be more violent, have more action… basically be a more mainstream game. That trend has gotten far more prevalent in the intervening years, so even the best intentions would likely fall flat.
As Arouet implied, Dishonored is Thief for the 21st century. Meanwhile I’m really looking forward to some of the moody Kickstarters like Tangiers, games with total creative freedom that really want to take a few leaves from Thief’s playbook.
I agree with Arouet as well: Thief is a thing of the past and I’m more looking forward to what Arkane has in store.
Funny enough I remember preferring The Metal Age, but I was young and foolish then. Who knows what I’d see now! it has been so long since the Thiefs.
Yeah I think you nailed what I’m disliking about Metal Age Steerpike. Wandering around in huge, featureless levels, occasionally finding a tiny coin hidden in the rafters is not a recipe for fun. I distinctly remember being completely uninterested in Metal Age when it first came out. I had recently finished the original and, while enjoying it, was kind of done with Thief. I think the game just took too much out of me. I always played very slowly and deliberately. And all that waiting, though fun, was also very draining.
Oh yeah, I kind of remember that City glyph thing. I gotta admit it’s not exactly knocking my socks off though. Still, Deadly Shadows, for all its faults, did atmosphere very well.
I’m going to now jump on the Arouet bandwagon too. I recently gave Dishonored another chance (not being too impressed after my first, brief attempt) and wow. Games like to talk about choice, but this one offers so many I don’t even know where to begin sometimes. I’m guessing this is all the Thief I’ll need as well.
I have to admit that I rather liked The Metal Age. The huge sprawl of bank mission and the masterwork of Life of the Party. I preferred the concluding mission to The Dark Project because it felt more like a climax worthy of Thief, as opposed to following a single route to a single thieving action.
The Metal Age has a few great missions (Trail of Blood being my favorite) interspersed between many boring or frustrating ones (warehouse and bank robbery missions), and I hated how the story gutted the Hammerites, who were the most interesting and special thing about The City. It’s also really unfair to rag on LGS too much for TII though – they just ran out of time trying to stave off bankruptcy and had to rush the game through the door. So if the game aggravates you at times, blame John Romero. And it still has the most beautiful cutscenes ever made in a game.
Now, Thief III I thought was horribly underrated by everyone. The plot is actually engaging (I even liked the ending! Man I wish they had done a Thief 4 where a Stephen Russell-voiced Garrett slowly hands the keys over to that girl), and has the single greatest level ever made (you know which one).
Aw man now I feel guilty for bad-mouthing a Looking Glass game. I’m sorry LG! We’ll always have Ultima Underworld. And System Shock. I promise I’ll give Metal Age more time. 🙂
I dunno; I’ve loved all the Thief games–though the first 2 still were my favorites. And Return to the Cathedral I still think was the best level in any game ever.
But I loved Dishonored too. So maybe I just like being able to sneak around, knock people out, and steal stuff. Probably not a good confession for someone who works in the judiciary.
Meho was the first to use that phrase – Thief for the 21st Century – at least around me. Those are big shoes to fill so when I read the comment my first reaction was to question it, but it’s an apt description. I don’t feel nearly as passionate about Dishonored as I did about Thief… I liked it, but that was all. A lot of that feeds into the “times have changed” thread of this discussion.
In mood, atmosphere, setting, Dishonored is what Thief evolved into. It’s all interpretation. Less “Dishonored now holds Thief’s mantle in the 21st Century,” more “what Thief would have been if it arrived in the 21st Century.” Discussing it as a franchise, one thing we’re all doing (rightly) is focusing on single moments within the series. The series as a whole was far from perfect. But the moments within it – Shalebridge, Thieves Highway, Return to the Cathedral; some of its brilliance in sound design; the advances in first person controls – they’re qualities that set it apart.
Good or bad, and there were bad things, Thief remains one of the most memorable game experiences I’ve had. An objectively “better” game that I forget in a month is inherently less valuable than one I remember forever.
I feel like I am going to be very disappointed in the new Thief, though if we do get anything like Deadly Shadows, we will be lucky. I didn’t think DS was nearly as good as the first two. I want the old Garrett back. There is some consolation in the large number of Thief fan missions, many as good as the original games.
For me, the early Thief games were easily as much about the technology of the time as they were about the game design itself. The Dark Project came out in November 1998. I bought the Diamond Monster MX300 specifically
for this game. From the wiki:
“The Diamond Monster Sound MX300 was based on the Vortex2 audio ASIC from Aureal Semiconductor. It was a revolutionary step forward in gaming audio, with impressive 3D audio positioning and other innovative effects. Utilizing the then state-of-the-art Aureal A3D 2.0 3D audio API, the MX300 was capable of producing startlingly immersive audio. Its capability to turn simple stereo speakers into a 3D-audio experience was clearly ahead of the pack for the time, and is unique in its presentation compared to even the renowned and far newer Creative Audigy 2 series.”
From the Dark Project wiki:
“The game’s use of sound wave propagation, which allowed sounds to travel around corners and through rooms, became widely considered by game developers. GameSpot editor Greg Kasavin argued that, while Metal Gear Solid, Tenchu: Stealth Assassins and Thief all defined the stealth action genre, it was Thief that displayed “the purest depiction of what it might be like to slip from shadow to shadow” and “largely remains an unsurpassed achievement in gaming.””
I had a four speaker setup and you could very clearly hear the location of the guards footsteps in 3D. This setup, along with the notion of being able to be near a guard without alerting them was completely different from FPSs of that time. The immersion was simply incredible. Couple this with the mandatory 45 second game load penalty and you had serious reasons to pay attention.
The downside would be the amount of dedicated time and attention required to play the games. Honest stealthing requires a lot of timing the guard patrols and a lot of rehearsal via failure. As others here have noted, a person wants to like these games, they just take too much of what we no longer have. Game experiences get shorter, simpler, and easier to fit into the smaller places available for them in our lives.
I haven’t played Dishonored. I expect I would like it. Is it possible to create a true stealth experience with modern sensibilities?
Oh man, I remember those 3D sound cards. I always wanted to get one but it seemed like an unaffordable and extravagant luxury – like the physics processors back when they were standalone cards. But I can imagine what 3D positional audio would’ve sounded like run in hardware.
The sound work of Eric Brosius is one of the most important technical contributions Thief made to gaming. I know sound designers who still cite Brosius in the same breath as industry giants like Tommy Tallarico. Some say that he doesn’t get as much recognition simply because his work isn’t orchestral and often isn’t even recognizable as music. From this perspective, Tallarico and other audio stars like Jeremy Soule and Inon Zur have it easier.
You don’t see Thief’s audio engineering emulated very often, possibly because it’s not something just anybody could do. Its ability to manipulate your emotions and state of mind (not to mention your spatial awareness) were second to none. I can’t think of a single game that comes close. Brosius has a dark art. Color me envious, Helmut.
As for Dishonored, yes – you would like it. It’s unique but also very similar in style to Thief, and features the gorgeous design work of Viktor Antonov, who created Half Life 2’s City-17. Gameplay is pretty straightforward stealth, with tons of choices on how you execute a mission. It’s not balls to bones Thief, of course; Dishonored’s Corvo goes about things differently than Garrett would. In fact I suspect those two would not have much in common. But Dishonored does capture much of the same feel, though to our jaundiced eye it just seems really great instead of being transcendental like I remember Thief being.
It was a rediculous purchase. Aureal went broke trying to litigate Creative out of existence, so no driver existed for any operating system after win 98. But God, those were two good years :). I had a 3dfx graphics card at the time as well. When you started a game that used the Glide (graphics) and Aureal (sound) drivers, the games would present a 3dfx logo and play a sound splash like the THX ones they used to have at the start of movies. I still have the pc and the cards and I’m certain they still work. I just need to find a spare cd player to load my old copy of win98.
In one of the early Dark Project missions I was in a darkened library when the door popped open and a guard entered. I was on a bit of marble floor between two ends of the carpeting and could not safely move so I crouched and waited. The guard walked right up to my position and stopped at the end of his route literally a hands width away. After a moment he spun on his heel and walked away. Naturally, in good sport, I waited till he got a reasonable distance away before I nailed him with an arrow. Golden.
I started my life as a gamer with a Voodoo 3 3000 and a Turtle Beach Montego II, and I swear on my life that the sound off that thing was more 3-dimensional than anything that’s been done sense. I’m pretty sure EAX could never do above-below directional sound as well as left-right, certainly not to the point I could notice it at all, much less use it during gameplay. The Freespace games were where A3D really shone – whenever a capital ship warped in or an enemy fighter flew by you from any direction, you could immediately find it by just following the sound. It makes me so mad that Aureal drove itself to bankruptcy suing Creative – their product was INFINITELY superior.
Oh my. This all makes me so unhappy. Thief was they game that got me to move from a total adventure game player to games that were a lot more challenging and therefore more interesting. I loved all three of the Thief games.
I had hopes for this next game. I am dimming down my expectations. But I expect I will buy it and give it a chance.
I guess what I feel is most like Earnest said………..<<I dunno; I’ve loved all the Thief games–though the first 2 still were my favorites. And Return to the Cathedral I still think was the best level in any game ever.
But I loved Dishonored too. So maybe I just like being able to sneak around, knock people out, and steal stuff. Probably not a good confession for someone who works in the judiciary.<<
Me too, Earnest. Games where I can sneak around and do stuff without killing everyone. That is my kind of game.
Kay Thomas
I’ve been patiently waiting for your comments on the new Thief ever since the trailers started rolling out, Steerpike. I read and fell in love with your wonderful retrospective piece many years ago (with references to Gormenghast’s stone sky-field, no less!). It put so many of my feelings about Thief into words – like you, The Dark Project had a profound effect on little 13-year-old me when it first came out, an effect I found it very difficult to explain to others.
I’ve had to emotionally restrain myself regarding this new game in order to avoid tarnishing my memories with disappointment, but that’s resulted in apathy which isn’t much good either. I do remember watching an interview with one of the designers who clearly had no love or understanding of Garrett’s character, talking about how they were trying to give him a more Assassins Creed-like edge, make him more outgoing and badass. I can just hear the beautifully withering response the REAL Garrett (in Russel’s voice, naturally) would give that. It smacks of trying too hard and a severe lack of understanding of what truly makes Thief Thief.
Despite all this, I’m determined to give this game a fair shot – I WANT to love it so badly. If all else fails the originals are finally up on GoG.com, so at least I can point the newcomers to them. Every cloud, right?
I just want to thank you for articulating my thoughts on the new material so eloquently and amusingly. I don’t care if he wears eyeliner either, because you know what? We never even saw Garrett’s face until Deadly Shadows. Maybe he was went through an Alice Cooper phase. I personally like to think he had a marvellous hat collection.
This is actually kind of giving me a Tomb Raider reboot vibe. What with taking a game series that focused on not-action (stealth in this case, platforming for Tomb Raider) and making it like a different, more actiony popular series (Assassin’s Creed and Uncharted, respectively). For all that I wish it had had more classic Tomb Raider stuff going on, that was still a really good game, so…
@Amy Louise – thank you very much, and glad to have you on Tap! Anyone who compliments my Gormenghast references is most welcome, plus you’ve reminded me that I still haven’t read Titus Awakes even though it’s been sitting on my coffee table for a year and a half.
More like Assassin’s Creed… that produces mixed feelings. I suppose there are worse things to emulate, and AC certainly did the climbing and rooftops pretty well. For some reason, though, I’ve never been able to think about the Assassin’s Creed series in terms of what it’s done right, so it has a negative association in my mind.
You know what all this reminds me of? Eidos Mont’s decision to outsource the Human Revolution boss battles, and the interviews the contractor gave. They clearly had never played a Deus Ex game, and had no idea their responsibilities. Big mistake, yeah – but it was Eidos that felt like outsourcing something so important was a good idea, and Eidos that accepted the work Grip did. In this instance you’ve got an internal team not fully appreciating how important some mythology aspects are to the fans.
Dix’s suggestion may be best. I want to like it and I think I can like it fine, unless I hold it to expectations of loyalty to the earlier Thief work. Tomb Raider was a really really good game – and only felt tangentially like a “Tomb Raider game.” This reboot might be fine if we’re able to play it and say “it’s not Thief, but it’s a good game.”
I like where your head’s at re:eye makeup, Amy Louise. Maybe that’s why Garrett kept missing his rent – too much money on hats.
Stealing Beauty was how I found Four Fat Chicks, so I’m with you Amy, though I always disagreed with Steerpike’s characterization of Garrett. If material gain was really all that drove him, then judging by his perpetual inability to make ends meet despite his mythical abilities I’d say he’s not a very smart dude, despite all appearances to the contrary. I’d much rather believe that all the talk about money is an endless exercise in self deception. Garrett steals because he loves doing it. He was made to do it. It’s not about the money and it never was – it’s about the prize, the challenge, doing the impossible and stealing what can’t be stolen. As Constantine told him, he is an artist, and what drives him is the same thing that drives all artists. He is a creature driven entirely by the highest of human needs, self-actualization. If he ever does care about the money, then it’s because that’s how he keeps score (literally so for the player!). In fact I even suspect that he intentionally doesn’t do enough to make himself comfortable, lest he lose his edge and his hunger for the next hunt. There’s nothing else that could ever bring him happiness. But he can’t say it aloud, or ever openly admit it to himself.
In other words, he’s the perfect idol for a lonely, existential teenager looking for one as he’s growing up…n-n-not that I would know anything about that….
Dix you make an interesting point about Tomb Raider. I remember the old Tomb Raider (I only played the first one) as having too much annoying combat mixed in with the excellent platforming. This time, they actually made the combat fun but, of course, went too light on the platforming for both of our tastes. That’s why I’m so optimistic about the next one – if it can put its titular tombs back in with the (actually fun now) combat (that bow!) I’d be very pleased.
Ernest and Helmut, thanks for stirring up the old memories of what I liked about Thief. For me it was always the atmosphere – thick, brooding, menacing and very real. The stealing itself was never really that interesting. It was the power-trip of being a shadow when in reality you were pretty power-less. Like walking a tight-rope without a net.
If this new game gets atmosphere right, then it may be enough. Pulling that off without Stephen Russell would be something though.
As always great read….the comments are even better.:-)
The physical ‘exhaustion’ from playing the game for more than 40 min’s was immense.
The insistence on completing the level without alerting anyone really drained you.
Was it a downside ‘then’? Difficult to say. I had the time and the patience 15 years ago which I doubt I have now.
Don’t think that kind of ‘patient’ gaming crowd remains in today’s world.
I doubt these new reboots (any reboots for that matter) really make us old die hard fans happy.
Some of the old creases are ironed out (mostly in the gfx and some game play areas) but they simply fail to capture the feel of those classics……..
These reboots are a bit too smooth and refined for my taste.
The Thief Gold CD had a fantastic video walk through the LG studios and snippets that gave a beautiful insight into how LG people actually worked……it looked like they were operating out of a garage…small offices, crazy deadlines on seriously small budgets (at least that’s how it looked to me from the video.)
I listen to the intro & credit music of T1 & T2 from time to time to take me back. Those harsh guitar riffs bring back old memories.
Damn these ‘Thief’ & ‘NOLF’ threads suddenly makes me feel very old.
Amit! How you doin’? Haven’t seen you in forever. : )
You make an interesting point. Thief was a very tense game, and even before you said it flat out, I was thinking it reading your comment – I’m not as young and spry as I used to be. Being that coiled up for that long a time hurts. Only game I can think of that’s more physically draining is Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter, which I simply can’t play any more because it throws my back out. Seriously.
I’m curious to see how different this game feels. Will they go for atmosphere, but try a different atmosphere (so as to minimize hate from Thief purists)? Will they try to recreate the brooding City of old? What about the self-urinatingly terrifying moments? Arouet obliquely mentioned Shalebridge Cradle, the most terrifying two hours in gaming; I doubt anyone has forgotten Return to the Cathedral or the haunted library either. Will they have that?
To be honest, curiosity has me more than dislike or doubt or irritation. I definitely worry that this team isn’t up to delivering a true Thief. But I’d like to see the franchise get a new lease on life, even if it’s a very different game. As long as it’s a good one, I’ll be okay.
The devs have now backed out of QTEs, to go along with backing out of XP for headshots and stuff. On the one hand that’s good I guess – I have no aversion to QTEs as such, just ones in the “press X to be awesome” category. Well, those and the “Think fast! Press X! Ha ha, too slow sucker! Now die!” ones which some games like to ambush me with.
On the other hand of course, it makes one wonder what they were thinking in the first place.
Amit, you should elaborate on what constitutes “too smooth and refined” for you. It’s an interesting part of examining how game design has changed over the years (well, it is for me anyway).
Good to be back reading on TR.
The office work is really taking me away from my favorite hobby.
I try to push in a few hrs of game time but it’s getting difficult lately.
I need to better manage my time so I can once again have some me time with these oldies.:)
I love how LG was able to ramp up the difficulty by just tweaking what you needed to achieve.
They restricted every possible way a player could go on an offense and in doing so immersed the player so deeply that it took the game to a whole new level.
I had a similar feel while playing NOLF.(cant help but bring this gem up).
Strange when I think about it, both Thief & NOLF had to be played in stealth to really appreciate what the dev’s were trying to communicate…Thief(with it’s extreme immersion in stealth) & NOLF(with it’s ridiculous off beat sense of humor(at least for me))
If you try to play them any other way..you are simply not playing them right…and you are essentially missing out on the best parts.
Creating games like these required a different level of thinking on the developers part…which somehow is missing in today’s HD powered games.
When it’s by the numbers….does it leave any scope to try out new ideas?
When you are trying to fit in mad crazyness into your game, trying to make it a looker takes a backseat…and in turn makes it look and play a bit unrefined compared to your contemporaries.
STALKER anyone?…what a world…makes me sad and happy just thinking about it.
Very few current games are looking interesting….however both the Metro’s were wonderfully atmospheric.
I am simply not getting that ‘soak me in your world’ feeling now.
Dishonored definitely had a very strong thief vibe..I had a warm familiar happy glow playing it.
I suppose the ‘too smooth and refined’ remark ties into what I was saying under xtal’s State of Decay review about ‘rough around the edges’; polish is all well and good but mechanics have to be compelling and I feel that most of the more interesting and daring games out there are indeed rough around the edges. It almost seems like a biproduct of vision, zeal and focus. I think sometimes games can be too smooth and refined; it’s like taking a lovely old gnarled oak coffee table and spackling the splits in the grain, sanding it down then giving it a lick of paint. Sure, it’s still a nice solid coffee table but its lost some of its character and the very qualities that made it unique. It’s less interesting now, homogenised even.
One of the reasons I always preferred The Dark Project was the openness to the strange beings out there beyond The City. In The Metal Age they dialled all that back so it was mostly about blackjacking guards and avoiding mechanical automatons (which were still awesome). I think the Craymen, Burricks and Haunts, as well as all the lore about the Woodsie Lord, added a lot to the atmosphere of the original. Having said this, The Metal Age did have the Trail of Blood mission which was a real hair-raiser if you got too close to the trees…
Anyway, I don’t know where to start with my love for Thief. It pretty much made me. The City, the incredible cut-scenes, the audio design (god the audio design), the music, the physics, leaning forwards and around corners, the unprecedented difficulty levels, the seductive trickle of lore, mantling, the gadgets, the slow and methodical pace, the surfaces and Garrett’s tap dancing shoes, the mission and level designs themselves (Assassins anyone?), Stephen Russell, that horrible feeling of trespassing and being somewhere you really shouldn’t, that weight above you as you descended deeper and deeper into the Bonehoard, Benny, the conversations, finally finishing a level after hours suffocating in its atmosphere, the dead bodies lying around under Cragscleft only for them to get up when you walk past them, the zombies, the mechanical eye, releasing the prisoners, Constantine’s mansion, the waiter taking refreshments to Ramirez… I really could go on. I’m sorry but, seriously, I can’t see this reboot being anything but shit in comparison. That Basso trailer looks and sounds awful to me. You can catch me playing the Dishonored DLC and waiting patiently for the sequel. kthxbye!
I mean, listen to the sound of the Craymen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHKNzVctCoU
Craymen: the grandfather of clickers.
I’ve also really enjoyed reading the comments on this one. It seems to me that instead of worrying about this new Thief game the lot of you should simply fire up The Dark Project. This month is what, the 15th anniversary, no? Perfect timing.
As I once opined that through consensus the one constant in our 2011 GOTY lists here seemed to be Bulletstorm, I think it’s safe to say that polling the community here would result in Thief decidedly being given the “Best Game Ever” mantle. I certainly wouldn’t disagree with that — good time to revisit an old friend, then, yes?
The Craymen know. They do.
Xtal’s right. If we polled Tap, I’m guessing Thief would either be #1 or be damned close to #1. I remember quite clearly, despite gaming for my whole life, the first time I ever thought “this is the best game I’ve ever played” was during Thief. I even remember the exact moment: I’d gotten the game for Christmas, it was a couple days later, I’d gotten home, installed, beat the first mission quickly (it had been the demo so I knew my way around), and moved on to the second. I was standing in the lower level of the Hammer Prison, right in the holding area – where light from the second tier casts diagonals across the cell block floor – hiding in shadow, and I thought, “this could be the best game I’ve ever played.” I actually paused there to call my up brother, who’d given me the gift, and thank him again.
All this talk of Thief, and the Warren Spector interview on RPS, sent me to some cool places. YouTube of the Dark Camelot and Dark Project footage, before it ever became Thief; the Game Developer postmortem, which I’d read before but forgotten. We forget how influential it was. Perhaps it is time to go through again, and the Metal Age too. *laugh* Looking at xtal’s comment an image popped into my head of someone showing up at Garrett’s door, out of the blue, intending to revisit an old friend. Good way to get stabbed.
Amit, your comments about NOLF are pertinent here. That’s two games with many similarities, that didn’t do as well as they should’ve, that innovated hugely and were hugely influential, that are remembered with great fondness, but that never really sold what they deserved to. Bill Harris once joked about how all of a sudden everyone had played Crackdown – after Prototype came out. I wonder how much rage is being directed toward New Thief from people who never once played Old Thief.
I also understand what you mean about rough edges. Thief was still at a time when there was more wonder in games, and also when it wasn’t quite the big business it is now. These days games are slick polished things; all the edges line up. Usually that’s desirable, but every now and then you want to see a seam here and there. Most people prefer Mom’s lumpy gravy to perfect store-bought stuff. Thief and NOLF are like home cooking, the “imperfections” are actually what makes them special, in a way. The blinding sheen aspired to but rarely reached by today’s games is different even in falling short.
Now I feel old, god dammit.
It’s not as you say ‘wanting to see a seam’, these games are remembered for that something special (there was a method to these games…slow, deliberate, that pulled you in.)
Don’t see that happening in today’s fast paced world.(just writing this makes me feel REALLY old.)
Will there be current games that will be fondly remembered 15 years from now?
Somehow, now it’s all about moving ‘quickly’ from 1 experience to the next.
Another odd game, rough around the edge, but having that magical charm was From Dust.
I don’t think what we on TR are looking for is a ‘game’ per say but an experience, a power trip as Synonamess Botch said……it’s all about the slow methodical experience that seems hard to come by in these reboots.
That’s the only logic I can see.
(We on TR seem to have a common taste in gaming. Do we have list of such serious nostalgia inducing oldies on TR?)
We don’t, actually, but it’s funny you bring that up. I’m working on an idea right in that area.
Some games of today will be remembered, definitely. And it may be that hindsight has simply removed the non-memorable ones of the past – this is common with movies. People act like all movies from the 1950s were good. Not true. The movies that survived until today are good. There was plenty of crap, and of course the same is probably true with the Days of Yore in gaming.
Remembered from today? Demon’s Souls. Dark Souls. The Last of Us. From Dust. Bulletstorm. Mass Effect. And plenty of others, I’m certain. But you’re right, there is a different feel to today’s games, and that’s really what makes the new Thief seem odd and out of place. This is not Garrett’s time.
Deus Ex, Thief and System Shock 2 are still to this day some of the best games I have ever played.
One of my most prized possessions, my original Thief: The Dark Project CD
http://i.imgur.com/SQPijxM.jpg
I hope Thief 4 will be good, but the more i read/hear/see the less hopeful i become…
I’m fearful Thief 4 will be to Thief as Simcity 5 was to SimCity…
Fingers crossed…
I still have the big boxes of both The Dark Project and The Metal Age, in mint condition, along with System Shock 2 and Planescape: Torment! Homeworld too but I never followed that game through. I own very few physical games otherwise!
I’m torn. On one hand, the first Thief is tied for first on my list of all-time favorite PC-based games, so I’m happy to see that it still has life. On the other hand, the original game had an intangible…personality (?) to it that had started to fade in The Metal Age and was missing completely from Deadly Shadows. Part of it was the now-archaic graphics, part was the plot (as one friend derisively put it, “Your mission: look for a black object in the dark”), and part was the simple thrill of experiencing a game that was wholly unique.
I’m sure the restart will look great, but the original is hard to top.
I just read this thread all the way through for the first time. Great discussion.
drivetheory said >>Deus Ex, Thief and System Shock 2 are still to this day some of the best games I have ever played.<<
Me two. The first Thief and the first Deus Ex are the games that really sucked me into serious gaming beyond point and click adventure games. System Shock 2 was beyond belief. The only other game that has enthralled my in this way was STALKER. It created an atmosphere that I found addictive. Unfortunately I only got 90% of the way through STALKER because I am not much good at shooters. But if someone were to ask me what game I most remember it would be STALKER.
I keep looking for games like these. I don't find many of them Didhonored is as close as I have come recently.
Mostly I just do big RPGs and wander around and complete quests and level up now and then. And this is fine. But it doesn't have the same compulsive edge that these games had for me. And I do give some indie games a try and sometimes hit a jackpot for me — like Limbo which I found delightful
But this is life and you take what is out there and do what you can with it.
Kay