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	<title>Comments on: Negative Effects</title>
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	<link>http://tap-repeatedly.com/2010/01/27/negative-effects/</link>
	<description>Games. Media. Opinions. Attitude.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 07 Sep 2010 14:16:18 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Mike "Scout" Gust</title>
		<link>http://tap-repeatedly.com/2010/01/27/negative-effects/#comment-2942</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike "Scout" Gust</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 15:05:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tap-repeatedly.com/?p=4907#comment-2942</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve heard that argument before, comparing books, film and games on a scale of density of information. I always think, &quot;yeah true, but the quality of information can easily be on an inverse scale&quot;, with books imparting the finest grained information, film more crude and games very very crude or large grained. Maybe the fact of a character having longing can be transmitted faster, but the depth of that longing not so much. Film and games often tend toward a pantomime of emotions which can leave the audience oddly unsatisfied. Writing is brought in to remedy that and so we tend to think the writing is the problem when it&#039;s really just poor all around execution. Great films and great games don&#039;t have this problem obviously. Their creators understand the medium enough that they can use it without bringing in lots of text and exposition. 

That &quot;Investigate&quot; choice in the first Mass Effect was maddening. I was always thinking, &quot;Oh no. I thought we were done here.&quot; 
The weakness of this in Mass Effect at least is that we are being forced to hear this stuff cause we really don&#039;t care, we just want to get back to shooting stuff but the devs want us to know, so we pretend to care by reading it all. At the end I was just hitting the handy &quot;all read&quot; button.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve heard that argument before, comparing books, film and games on a scale of density of information. I always think, &#8220;yeah true, but the quality of information can easily be on an inverse scale&#8221;, with books imparting the finest grained information, film more crude and games very very crude or large grained. Maybe the fact of a character having longing can be transmitted faster, but the depth of that longing not so much. Film and games often tend toward a pantomime of emotions which can leave the audience oddly unsatisfied. Writing is brought in to remedy that and so we tend to think the writing is the problem when it&#8217;s really just poor all around execution. Great films and great games don&#8217;t have this problem obviously. Their creators understand the medium enough that they can use it without bringing in lots of text and exposition. </p>
<p>That &#8220;Investigate&#8221; choice in the first Mass Effect was maddening. I was always thinking, &#8220;Oh no. I thought we were done here.&#8221;<br />
The weakness of this in Mass Effect at least is that we are being forced to hear this stuff cause we really don&#8217;t care, we just want to get back to shooting stuff but the devs want us to know, so we pretend to care by reading it all. At the end I was just hitting the handy &#8220;all read&#8221; button.</p>
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		<title>By: Lewis B</title>
		<link>http://tap-repeatedly.com/2010/01/27/negative-effects/#comment-2940</link>
		<dc:creator>Lewis B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 14:49:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tap-repeatedly.com/?p=4907#comment-2940</guid>
		<description>@ Meho, that guy is absolutely on the money.  I completely agree with everything he said.

I really doubt now after this lengthy (and brilliant post), that I will invest in ME2.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Meho, that guy is absolutely on the money.  I completely agree with everything he said.</p>
<p>I really doubt now after this lengthy (and brilliant post), that I will invest in ME2.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt "Steerpike" Sakey</title>
		<link>http://tap-repeatedly.com/2010/01/27/negative-effects/#comment-2939</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt "Steerpike" Sakey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 14:19:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tap-repeatedly.com/?p=4907#comment-2939</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s odd, Meho, I am really enjoying Mass Effect 2 but I definitely recognize this guy&#039;s arguments. Mass Effect 2 feels very... compartmentalized to me. You talk for a while, then you shoot stuff. Then you talk. Then you shoot. And that&#039;s about it.

That they really drastically improved the shooting part is saving their bacon, because the plot (and much of the dialogue) is mediocre at best.

Now arguably any game can be described as talk, shoot, repeat. So the secret to making a good one is to make it not FEEL like that. Mass Effect 2 doesn&#039;t succeed in that, which is kind of a pity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s odd, Meho, I am really enjoying Mass Effect 2 but I definitely recognize this guy&#8217;s arguments. Mass Effect 2 feels very&#8230; compartmentalized to me. You talk for a while, then you shoot stuff. Then you talk. Then you shoot. And that&#8217;s about it.</p>
<p>That they really drastically improved the shooting part is saving their bacon, because the plot (and much of the dialogue) is mediocre at best.</p>
<p>Now arguably any game can be described as talk, shoot, repeat. So the secret to making a good one is to make it not FEEL like that. Mass Effect 2 doesn&#8217;t succeed in that, which is kind of a pity.</p>
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		<title>By: Meho</title>
		<link>http://tap-repeatedly.com/2010/01/27/negative-effects/#comment-2938</link>
		<dc:creator>Meho</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 09:03:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tap-repeatedly.com/?p=4907#comment-2938</guid>
		<description>Surely, everyone noticed that Alpha Protocol has been graced with a release date in the meantime. But in other news, the Contrarian Corner on IGN written by Michael Thomsen (http://pc.ign.com/articles/106/1067516p1.html) makes some points on mass Efect 2 I&#039;d like to quote here:

&quot;The worst outcome in dialogue trees is that they become static, in which button presses in conversation cease being interactions and just trigger another packet of exposition. To wit, whenever the &quot;Investigate&quot; option appears in a dialogue tree, as it does with almost every exchange, the play element turns into a three-minute encounter with an audio book. I realize, in many respects, that&#039;s an unfair thing to write, mostly because the audio book is much more interesting than it could have been. But what about listening qualifies as gameplay?

The argument is that it builds empathy with all the characters you&#039;ll eventually expose to deep space death. To fully appreciate the complex personas of all your squad members you&#039;ll need a rich understanding of the worlds and species that affect them. I would argue this is a wholly unnecessary, a relic of writing which only bogs down games. Books are, by nature, an information-poor medium. Complex emotions, ideas, and characters are hard to communicate directly in writing, so books tend towards figurative language that evokes, makes metaphors, and spins interwoven yarns that mirror the complexities an author might want to capture. 

Film contains an order of magnitude more information than writing. It carries music, image, color, shadow, performance, inflection, and human expression on top of the words written in the script. In a few seconds of film, the longing of a character can be instantly communicated in a way that would take Hemingway five pages to fully lay out. Games arrive next in the evolutionary daisy chain bearing even more information than film. Stories act on our intellects and imagination, but games act first on our senses and secondarily on our intellects. That&#039;s why games are so much easier with the sound off, and it&#039;s also why it feels like such a frustrating waste of art and voice acting to peck through Wiki-explanations using a dialogue wheel. &quot;

Oh, yeah, baby. I&#039;d like to buy this guy a drink. Anyone knows if he&#039;s coming to Serbia any time soon?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Surely, everyone noticed that Alpha Protocol has been graced with a release date in the meantime. But in other news, the Contrarian Corner on IGN written by Michael Thomsen (<a href="http://pc.ign.com/articles/106/1067516p1.html" rel="nofollow">http://pc.ign.com/articles/106/1067516p1.html</a>) makes some points on mass Efect 2 I&#8217;d like to quote here:</p>
<p>&#8220;The worst outcome in dialogue trees is that they become static, in which button presses in conversation cease being interactions and just trigger another packet of exposition. To wit, whenever the &#8220;Investigate&#8221; option appears in a dialogue tree, as it does with almost every exchange, the play element turns into a three-minute encounter with an audio book. I realize, in many respects, that&#8217;s an unfair thing to write, mostly because the audio book is much more interesting than it could have been. But what about listening qualifies as gameplay?</p>
<p>The argument is that it builds empathy with all the characters you&#8217;ll eventually expose to deep space death. To fully appreciate the complex personas of all your squad members you&#8217;ll need a rich understanding of the worlds and species that affect them. I would argue this is a wholly unnecessary, a relic of writing which only bogs down games. Books are, by nature, an information-poor medium. Complex emotions, ideas, and characters are hard to communicate directly in writing, so books tend towards figurative language that evokes, makes metaphors, and spins interwoven yarns that mirror the complexities an author might want to capture. </p>
<p>Film contains an order of magnitude more information than writing. It carries music, image, color, shadow, performance, inflection, and human expression on top of the words written in the script. In a few seconds of film, the longing of a character can be instantly communicated in a way that would take Hemingway five pages to fully lay out. Games arrive next in the evolutionary daisy chain bearing even more information than film. Stories act on our intellects and imagination, but games act first on our senses and secondarily on our intellects. That&#8217;s why games are so much easier with the sound off, and it&#8217;s also why it feels like such a frustrating waste of art and voice acting to peck through Wiki-explanations using a dialogue wheel. &#8221;</p>
<p>Oh, yeah, baby. I&#8217;d like to buy this guy a drink. Anyone knows if he&#8217;s coming to Serbia any time soon?</p>
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		<title>By: Gubljenje nevinosti: dvadesetdruga tura &#171; Cvece zla i naopakog</title>
		<link>http://tap-repeatedly.com/2010/01/27/negative-effects/#comment-2885</link>
		<dc:creator>Gubljenje nevinosti: dvadesetdruga tura &#171; Cvece zla i naopakog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 17:11:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tap-repeatedly.com/?p=4907#comment-2885</guid>
		<description>[...] u svom opširnom razmatranju naratoloških zamki Mass Effect 2 na Tap-Repeatedly! sam kao kontrast prizvao nanoviji autorski projekat pominjanog Goichija Sude, No More Heroes 2: [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] u svom opširnom razmatranju naratoloških zamki Mass Effect 2 na Tap-Repeatedly! sam kao kontrast prizvao nanoviji autorski projekat pominjanog Goichija Sude, No More Heroes 2: [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mike "Scout" Gust</title>
		<link>http://tap-repeatedly.com/2010/01/27/negative-effects/#comment-2878</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike "Scout" Gust</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jan 2010 06:19:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tap-repeatedly.com/?p=4907#comment-2878</guid>
		<description>I haven&#039;t been paying attention to all things Alpha Protocol lately but I have to say I&#039;m a bit surprised there&#039;s still no new release date. I really do want to play this game.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven&#8217;t been paying attention to all things Alpha Protocol lately but I have to say I&#8217;m a bit surprised there&#8217;s still no new release date. I really do want to play this game.</p>
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		<title>By: Meho</title>
		<link>http://tap-repeatedly.com/2010/01/27/negative-effects/#comment-2875</link>
		<dc:creator>Meho</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jan 2010 16:09:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tap-repeatedly.com/?p=4907#comment-2875</guid>
		<description>Amen to that. I&#039;m just worried about there being no official date on it. The interview I&#039;ve seen with Avellone on the last E3 was pretty reassuring but having SEGA not announce a date is... a bad signal. I hope it&#039;s not the case of the game being good in mechanical terms but unimpressive in presentation so that this is the stumbling block...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amen to that. I&#8217;m just worried about there being no official date on it. The interview I&#8217;ve seen with Avellone on the last E3 was pretty reassuring but having SEGA not announce a date is&#8230; a bad signal. I hope it&#8217;s not the case of the game being good in mechanical terms but unimpressive in presentation so that this is the stumbling block&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Matt "Steerpike" Sakey</title>
		<link>http://tap-repeatedly.com/2010/01/27/negative-effects/#comment-2874</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt "Steerpike" Sakey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jan 2010 13:32:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tap-repeatedly.com/?p=4907#comment-2874</guid>
		<description>What concerns me most is the leak and delay. I actually sat on a panel with Chris Avellone last spring and later asked him about what happened - he said that Alpha Protocol was finished and essentially no more work was being done on it; the team had moved on to another project. So it&#039;s unclear why the delay occurred at all, except for some asshole in SEGA QA writing and then leaking an obnoxious memo.

He seemed pretty cheerful about the whole thing, to be honest. He said morale was fine and they weren&#039;t worried about it. Alpha Protocol is definitely a must-buy for me. You can&#039;t go wrong with Chris Avellone&#039;s work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What concerns me most is the leak and delay. I actually sat on a panel with Chris Avellone last spring and later asked him about what happened &#8211; he said that Alpha Protocol was finished and essentially no more work was being done on it; the team had moved on to another project. So it&#8217;s unclear why the delay occurred at all, except for some asshole in SEGA QA writing and then leaking an obnoxious memo.</p>
<p>He seemed pretty cheerful about the whole thing, to be honest. He said morale was fine and they weren&#8217;t worried about it. Alpha Protocol is definitely a must-buy for me. You can&#8217;t go wrong with Chris Avellone&#8217;s work.</p>
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		<title>By: Meho</title>
		<link>http://tap-repeatedly.com/2010/01/27/negative-effects/#comment-2873</link>
		<dc:creator>Meho</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jan 2010 08:46:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tap-repeatedly.com/?p=4907#comment-2873</guid>
		<description>Well, that&#039;s business for ya. I mean, it really sold only modestly. Black Isle made all those Icewind Dale and BG Dark Aliance games later that sold well because they were more traditional in tone, but even that was not good enough to keep them afloat. That&#039;s why I am really in two minds about Alpha Protocol. On one hand, it&#039;s high time somebody made a serious RPG in modern setting and with Chris Avellone writing it it might actually be thought provoking on the storty level. On the other hand, nobody would pay for a game that won&#039;t sell, so they are forced to make it sexy... We&#039;ll see. SEGA as a publisher can be amazing but let&#039;s wait and see.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, that&#8217;s business for ya. I mean, it really sold only modestly. Black Isle made all those Icewind Dale and BG Dark Aliance games later that sold well because they were more traditional in tone, but even that was not good enough to keep them afloat. That&#8217;s why I am really in two minds about Alpha Protocol. On one hand, it&#8217;s high time somebody made a serious RPG in modern setting and with Chris Avellone writing it it might actually be thought provoking on the storty level. On the other hand, nobody would pay for a game that won&#8217;t sell, so they are forced to make it sexy&#8230; We&#8217;ll see. SEGA as a publisher can be amazing but let&#8217;s wait and see.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike "Scout" Gust</title>
		<link>http://tap-repeatedly.com/2010/01/27/negative-effects/#comment-2872</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike "Scout" Gust</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jan 2010 03:21:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tap-repeatedly.com/?p=4907#comment-2872</guid>
		<description>I agree about reading all the text in Torment. It was  the only game I&#039;ve ever played where the writing was consistently, in every instance, better than the gameplay. And the gameplay was amazing. I&#039;m still waiting for the game that tops PT in over all quality. It&#039;s sort of odd that no one has ever stepped up since. Depressing actually. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree about reading all the text in Torment. It was  the only game I&#8217;ve ever played where the writing was consistently, in every instance, better than the gameplay. And the gameplay was amazing. I&#8217;m still waiting for the game that tops PT in over all quality. It&#8217;s sort of odd that no one has ever stepped up since. Depressing actually.</p>
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